Open House Reports - Upper West Side - Q2 2009

Judging by your description and most notably the price and maintenance, this might take a year or more to sell.

Maintenance isn't at all bad, considering the size. It's tough to keep maintenance down in a small building, but this co-op made a good call in cutting the doormen down to the hours when it matters.

I'm also bothered by open kitchens, given the difficulty in getting rid of cooking smells in NY, but that suburban kind of layout seems to what a big chunk of that market wants.

west81st: do you have an email at which I may contact you with a question about a specific property?

EEEE1: Just put my screen name in front of @gmail.com.

West 81st,

Care to hazard a guess of 375 West End Avenue #3CD overal square footage?

2,190

I'll leave the advanced geometry to P09. It's a legitimate eight, and it's certainly over 2000 sq.ft.

I'll assume that the floors in the kitchen/dining/living area aren't as seizure-inducing in person as they appear to be in the photos. Yikes.

I saw 545 West 110th street, 3F. The light was beautiful in this apartment and the apartment showed really well. It was a good crowd I thought and it sounded like there might be some bids happening. I thougt the size was good and the layout worked if you are into new construction. However, I still find it hard to believe this high up could go at this price level despite the strong condition of the apartment.

I also saw 390 9E which I thought had a wonderful view but is on the small side. The dining area was the foyer and if you closed the doors of the bedroom/dining area, it would not feel very open. It is a really nice building though.

uwsmom - I know you have been looking at brownstone rentals. There are two out there now that are lower in price. Have you seen either or do they need a lot of work? 306 west 81 and and 51 west 83rd.

I wish 306 West 81 was in better condition, but it's not terrible. Outdoor space is nice. Owner is particular. I think it's still overpriced.

Have not seen 51 West 83. Living/dining space is too small for what I'd like.

Two rental listings at 306 West 81. While the SE price does not reflect this, the broker's listing shows the parlor floor one at $6800. Great location.

255 West 84th Street #9E
Co-op, 7 into 6 rooms, 2 beds + maid's 2.5 baths,
2000 sq.ft. stated (~1850 actual)
Asks:$2,695,000 Maint.:$3374 Assmt.:$424
Traffic: Very light

The Alameda is a gracious, pre-WWI co-op with several excellent layouts. The "E" line is among these, with its open eastern exposures, well-scaled spaces and flexible kitchen wing that accommodates either two small servants'/children's rooms or a single maid's room and a generous informal area for eating or leisure. #9E is a new listing that reflects the latter option. As with most of the "E" line, the living and dining rooms are now a single, east-facing public space that enjoys excellent light and air. All bathrooms are en-suite, which may be a minus for some buyers.

The apartment is in good condition. The 90s-vintage renovation was gentle and tasteful, and the finishes are generally aging well, though there are some signs of wear such as a visible crack in the cabinetry-matched paneling on the refrigerator. The carpeting in the bedrooms is probably near end-of-life as well.

Although the charms of this apartment may not live up to Katherine Gauthier's hyperbolic prose - "exceptional", "brilliant", "sweeping", "dramatic", "grand", "breathtaking", "sprawling", "abundant", etc. - it's a lovely home. The main concerns here are financial. At $2.695MM, #9E is priced $195K above the peak comp, #12E, which closed a year ago and was in similar or slightly better condition. (#12E reflected some modifications for a disabled occupant that might have needed undoing.) The maintenance and assessments are quite steep too, reflecting the capital investments required in recent years to deal with deteriorating infrastructure: a new roof, extensive facade work, updates to elevators and heating systems. The most recent blow to shareholders was the sale of #12A - a corner eight on the top floor, and arguably the best apartment in the building - for $2.3MM. #12A needed work, but the price demonstrated the combined effects of a softening market and high monthlies.

Just to clarify: #12A would likely be the most valuable of the ORIGINAL apartments at 255. Other units (e.g. #8A) may currently surpass it in value due to renovations, annexing rooms from neighbors, or both.

530 West End Avenue #2B vs. #11B
Condo, #2B: 7 into 6 rooms, 3 beds/3 baths; #11B: 7 rooms, 4 beds/3 baths
2150 sq.ft. (Per prior listing of #11B; CCs suggest #2B is slightly bigger than #11B)
Financials: #2B: $3.5MM CC $2140 Tax $898 #11B: $3.995MM CC $2123 Tax $934
Traffic: Very light

These neighbors took different approaches to modernizing a classic seven. The style of #2B is more traditional, with well-preserved details and a design sense that is faithful to the building's 1911 vintage. The large, side-by-side LR/DR make a grand impression, and the stained glass in the dining room is the perfect solution to a dim rear view. Belle Époque aspirations fall short in a few details, like the anachronistic added millwork in the master bedroom. Views from the rear bedrooms are decent for the second floor. The layout has some warts. Because the small fourth BR/maid's room has been incorporated into the big kitchen, there are only two bedrooms in the rear wing. The third bedroom sits at the front of the apartment, off the gallery, and faces West End - an obvious concern on the second floor, even after the construction at 535 finishes. Consequently, the apartment may work best for a smaller family that hosts a lot of overnight guests. There's also no natural place for a home office. The owners use a long closet in the gallery; few home offices are sufficiently neat to bear that kind of exposure. Also worth noting is that some updates show both age and possible corner-cutting. The kitchen cabinets, for example, may not pass muster with a fussy buyer.

#11B offers less charm, but may be the more practical choice. Here, the small bedroom adjoining the kitchen has been preserved, and a clever breakfast/laundry area has been created on the other side of the kitchen, using pantry space and a bit of the gallery. The sensibility here is resolutely modern, with clean lines and expensive kitchen/bath finishes. The master bath is a MOMA exhibit, if you like that sort of thing in a pre-WW1 seven. The rear of the apartment gets fairly good light, though the views are marred by fire escapes and other obstructions. The front bedroom, with en-suite bath, takes its more natural role as a den/guestroom. One detail of #11B that seemed a little odd to me was the wainscoting in the dining room. It doesn't look original, but it doesn't fit the renovation either. The listing agent didn't know the history.

The pricing of both "B" listings seems quite ambitious. #11B changed hands in early 2006 for $3.075MM. #6B, which was beautifully renovated, sold very quickly in 2007 for $4MM, 2.7% above ask. It's probably fair to say the current asks, although reduced by $500K from their original levels, are still quite close to peak pricing. Considering the weak current demand in this segment and the type of apartment currently going to contract in the mid-threes (see 300 WEA #4A, 5A and 5B), I think either owner would be fortunate to close north of $3MM.

Nice write-up. Did you notice where the central AC stuff was?

Re: size/CC difference, the declaration has 2B at 2156 square feet and 3.5774 PCI, while 11B is at 2137 square feet and 3.5486 PCI. I don't recall ever seeing such precise area measurements: ten-thousandth of a square foot.

I bought and sold 7B in 530 back in ?1999?. One thing to note in this building is that a large percentage of the units have been "cut up", so you have a lot of oddly configured units, and it's not a "Class A" building with 2 big units per floor as it was originally built (my 7B was a 2BR, 1.5 bth). In some cases, you have "reconstituted" apartments, which may be the reason for varying sizes within what should be a "line". Because if you look at the floorplans ( or perhaps I should say "as I see the floorplans"), there does not appear to be any size difference).

NWT: it's not measured to 1/10,000 of a square foot: it's divided to 1/10,000 percent of common interest. Maybe a nitpick, but not the same thing. It's still unusual, as I think most common is two places past the decimal point, rather than 4.

Both square feet and PCI were listed to four decimal places, but I didn't write down the square feet, since they don't translate to $ while PCI does.

West81 - largely agree. I looked at both as well.

2B needs a decent amount of work. Hasn't been refreshed in some time and the third bedroom that faces West End is currently configured as a den with sliding doors opening to the living room - so to make it a three you would need to do work there.

11B was a beautiful, modern renovation with great attention to detail. But for $4mm you would expect closet space and a true three bedroom. The one renovated bedroom which used to be a maid's room - has been re-done quite nicely with bunk beds - but it basically has no closet space.

I think another $500k down for each - maybe $700k or $800k for 2B.

Also on the under $900k search for a 2/2 on UES or UWS... Saw a few yesterday:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/407347-condo-129-west-89th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
This apt was great! We really enjoyed it. The finishes are top of the line!!! BUT it's about 6 blocks too far north.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/385672-coop-101-west-81st-street-upper-west-side-new-york
These two apts are next door to each other. Both are duplexes, the top floors are nice, but the bedrooms are in the basement!!!!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/408044-condo-130-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
Didn't see this one, but skeptical about how small it seems ... anyone seen it??

685 West End Avenue #2B vs. #5B vs. #10B. Coop, approx. 1900 sq.ft. Fin: 75%. TD:42%.
#2B: $1.99MM; Classic six, 2BR + maids /2.5BA; maint $2029
#5B: #2.40MM; Six-into-five, 3BR / 2BA; maint $2057
#10B: #2.49MM; Six rooms, 3BR / 2BA; maint $2132
Traffic: Very light

685 WEA is a well-regarded coop at the northern edge of prime WEA. The lobby is large and well-maintained. The east landings provide semi-privacy to the front-facing "A" and "B" lines. There have been no sales in the "B" line since 2006, when #9B closed for $2.1MM. Now there are three listings vying for attention. #2B and #10B have languished for over a year and switched brokers without effect. #5B joined the field three weeks ago.

#2B is owned by an estate that was reportedly pillaged by Madoff. It retains the original c-six floorplan, and appears to be a blank canvas (a.k.a. "wreck"). Considering the low floor, intense competition, and need for renovation, the heirs are likely in for more bad news. I didn't get to see #2B because the broker cut her open house short by fifteen minutes.

#5B and #10B have been reconfigured as 3BRs, with the former maid's room in each converted to a dining space. In #5B, that space is open to the kitchen; in #10B, it's a separate room. Both choices work, though I found the resulting kitchen and dining room in #10B a bit tight. The WEA-facing LR is squarish and well-proportioned, though not at all grand. In #5B, built-ins reduce the width. The family wing of each apartment flows very well, with the former dining room integrated seamlessly as a third BR. All three bedrooms are generous, and the MBR has an excellent dressing corridor between the main chamber and the en-suite bath.

The Corcoran broker in #10B tried to tout the renovation there as superior; I gave the edge to #5B, which has through-wall A/C and, IMO, nicer finishes. Neither apartment has any glaring flaws. The real problem for all three listings is that their prices put them in competition not only with each other, but also with sevens in better locations. The 685 WEA address may appeal to UWS scholars, and the "B" floorplan is certainly spacious; but a $2MM sale on a viewless six north of 90th is rare these days. If recent movement around the corner at 250 West 94th is any indication, this bunch could struggle to find buyers near the current asking prices.

I consider 685WEA classic 6es one of the more flexible 6 layouts around. It's an easy conversion to a 3-bedroom, without losing a dining room/area. There were at least 2 6es that sold north of 2m in '05/'06. While the LR isn't grand it's at least 20% larger than most LRs in a classic 6.

I agree that a 2m price tag is crazy, but these should still sell for more than the typical 6 in the vicinity.

10023: Agreed on all points.

BTW, I should probably have said the kitchen in #5B is SEMI-open to the dining area. They kept part of the wall.

What is interesting is the very wide price range for classic 6es on the UWS. You have 522WE going for under 1m, you have the F-line at San Remo going for high-2s (TBD). That's a 2m gap between one of the best locations on the UWS (albeit no view) and a not-so-bad location on UWS.

110RSD15C has a very similar layout (bigger LR) to the B-line at 685 at a lower price. Better location.

nyc10023, I saw 522WE and whoever purchased it got a steal. It was during Dec/Jan period where nothing was moving and the sponsor just wanted to unload it. I wish I was the lucky buyer.

nyc10023: I loved 110RSD #15C on plan and pictures. The reality was a bit of a letdown. The problem with the "C" line is that it's the middle tine in a fork-shaped building (albeit an excellent one). As such, it offers 360-degree views of the neighbors. Weird kitchen floor too, IIRC. For the most part, a very nice apartment, and one of my favorites in the $1.5-2MM range; but probably a non-starter for anyone who needs views or a lot of light.

Good pt on the light & the worst position in the building. The other 6es in the building (with good-sized maid's) are in slightly better positions.

"What is interesting is the very wide price range for classic 6es on the UWS. You have 522WE going for under 1m, you have the F-line at San Remo going for high-2s (TBD). That's a 2m gap between one of the best locations on the UWS (albeit no view) and a not-so-bad location on UWS. "

One of the reasons I always rail against the "average $PSF" questions.

"it offers 360-degree views of the neighbors"

You must love the Corinthian.

30yrs, I must be blind or dumb or both. 522WE under 1m? Is that a print, or an open listing?

It closed, so a print.

don't worry TwoNutz.... economy is still tanking.. so that 522 WEA can be the basis from which to bid 20% lower.. see no need to feel bad..... REJOICE in the mkt!!!! ohhhh ppooooohh ppooooh poohhhhh ... "I wish I was that buyer." poooh pooh poohh.....

gaongaon: Here's the ACRIS link for the closing at 522 WEA #6A (might not work unless ACRIS is already open): http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2009050100269001

TwoCities: We discussed that sale on the IYCDMMWC-UWS thread already so I won't re-hash it here. Time will tell whether #6A was a steal or just another wreck leading the market down. I think of 490 WEA, where #3B was the "leader in the clubhouse" for a few months. Then #9B closed $350K lower.

333 West End Avenue #5A
↓ $2,200,000; Maint.$2528; Assmt.$267 to 1/2011
Co-op 2 beds 2 baths
Traffic: Very light

333 WEA is a charming, staid, discreet building with a side-street entrance and a 24-hour elevator operator. Normally, there isn't much turnover here, but 2009 is an unusual year. #5A is one of five apartments on the market. It's the only classic six in the mix. Functionally, it's a five-room apartment. The maid's room has been fully incorporated into the kitchen, and although the dining room is large, traffic flow and fenestration probably rule out dividing it. Light in the east-facing LR and MBR is decent, and the views over West End are pleasant if unspectacular. Noise was not bad on a Sunday afternoon; that might be a concern on weekdays. The rest of the apartment is very quiet, but gets little natural light. All rooms are of good size. Storage is generally ample, except in the second BR.

The lack of direct competition to #5A might be encouraging a bit of denial about pricing. The owners listed the apartment briefly with BHS for $2.4MM over the winter, then switched to Bellmarc in February at the same price. The current ask of $2.2MM has been in place since March. The number sticks out because the owners purchased #5A in 2007 for $2.025MM. The only notable changes they appear to have made are some kitchen upgrades (appliances and countertops, I think) and the removal of the french doors from the dining room. (They're in storage, in case the buyer wants to re-mount them.)

Meanwhile, some of the the prior owners' renovations are deteriorating. For example, the kitchen cabinets are starting to unhinge. So, while the apartment looks quite nice, a buyer shouldn't assume that ongoing investment will not be needed. Even if the fixtures hold up, the high asking price and total monthlies of $2800 make #5A a very pricey proposition, unless you think the market for classic sixes on West End in the 70s is stronger than in early 2007. That seems a bit of a stretch.