Why don't more people live in Brooklyn?

There is more. You could live within walking distance of the Atlantic Avenue hub where you can get the 2,3,4,5,B,D,N,Q,R or LIRR . These same trains also run through various parts of the neighborhood.
Glad you had a good time here. We love it.

I'm not afraid of the boroughs (LIC resident), and can tell you that in our case it's all about transportation. In addition to the subway coverage being problematic if you need to get to midtown or north, if your commute requires you to drive east or north of the city then living in Brooklyn is massively inconvenient.

You answered your own question. It's transportation and useful retail (such as groceries). Red Hook Fway is amazing as are the ethnic shops in Sunset Park, Bay Ridge, Flatbush/Atlantic but not easily accessible on foot or by subway. You pay a price for the lack of density.

Uh...4 million people live in Brooklyn. How many more do you want?

And how does a neighborhood "pretend" to be something anyway? A neighborhood is what it is.

Park Slope has tremendous appeal, but as in the draw of any area, there are lifestyle choices to be considered. For some, it is clearly easier raising a family in Park Slope than say Manhattan. Good public schools can be found, nice community feel, park nearby along with botanical gardens and library. Then again, there are, as everywhere, some pretty dumpy stretches if you head off in some directions. And yes, it is close to Manhattan, but realistically a 20 minute+ subway ride away from the nearest points. If you spend time in Manhattan in the evenings, your cab allowance will have to increase since you will surely be jumping in a taxi more often rather than wait for trains at 11pm. You'll also spend more time in transportation going back and forth if you do a lot in Manhattan. Shopping choices are admittedly fewer in Park Slope (although many good choices exist there), and entertainment is much more limited in terms of theatres, number of quality restaurants, clubs, museums and galleries, etc. To some people that matters, to others it matters not at all.

But Park Slope and Greenwich Village (I say GV only because the original post singles out that Manhattan 'hood), are apples and oranges and one size cannot fit all as if simply "discovering" PS would open everyone's eyes to the OP's suggested folly of Manhattan. The OP compares PS to Greenwich Village. Fine. Let's look at the central Village: Wash Sq Park is an incredible space where people of all ages and backgrounds come together and where the song of the city's vox populi can be heard year-round. The myth of NYU students somehow being bad neighbors dissolves when you actually see how wonderfully the school and other residents come together. The kids add youth and energy and are--contrary to unfair stereotypes--quite good neighbors. Some of the finest restaurants in the city are within walking distance of the park, SoHo shopping is 5 minutes away, Whole Foods and Trader Joes along with Citarella and other specialty shops are easily accessed, and transportation is easy from the F, A, E, 1, R, W and other lines or Lex Ave IRT if you are in the central or east Village. When you take into consideration the areas that adjoin the central Village, it is hard to argue against the vibrancy of life in this area: west Village, east Village, NoHo and SoHo, Chelsea...It isn't exactly like the people who live in GV are being duped somehow or pretending to like one of the best areas in the city.

I just never understand why when expressing the virtues of one neighborhood, some feel the need (as did the original poster here) to simultaneously attempt to put down others as if some objective ranking exists. You want to join 4 million people in Brooklyn? Great. You want to live in Manhattan? Wonderful. Discover a new neighborhood? Terrific, but why go off bashing others?

Yeah, way more people live in brooklyn and queens (each!) than Manhattan. What a moron.

good post kyle :)

kylewest,

Great post (and I also agree that NYU students get a somewhat unfair rep). Different neighborhoods exist because people have different needs and interests. Expecting everyone (or "more people") to conform to the same notions is a bit nutty. Enjoy what you love; there's no point in bashing others' tastes.

Brooklyn...4th largest city in America! How many more people do you want to move in? Great post Kylewest... Anyone been to Washington Square Park since it reopened post reno? It's AMAZING...folks frolicking in the fountain and all....

kylewest, add me to the list of appreciative readers, excellent post. and i agree, the hostility toward students is both bizarre and unfounded. there are some louts, and they are a bit more exuberant than those who sport canes and walkers, but they offer vitality and the willingness to spend large percentages of their disposable income supporting the local restaurant and bar scene.

Well, admittedly *some* hostility toward the students is well-founded. But you know that when you choose to live in the NYU area, so if it bothers you, try another neighborhood. Also, many NYU students live in Brooklyn and commute.

Fantastic post, Kyle. There's wonderful aspects and drawbacks to every neighborhood and every borough; it's a matter of learning what works for you.

Nice post kylewest.

BooktoBrooklyn: maybe you should make more than one visit in 15 years to a neighborhood before you start extolling its virtues here. I'd venture to say that most of the folks here have been there enough to know that its pretty different from the village.

I don't know about Brooklyn, but I agree that the Village, particularly the West Village, is overrated. Those "cobblestone" streets are all beat up, there are nice blocks but they are spotty and surrounded by bad blocks, some really bad and ugly blocks with bad and ugly buildings, tenements, the housing complexes west, bad porno stores, bad Mexican restaurants and stores shuttered recently, too many Marc Jacobs stores, so many homeless. NYU doesn't necessarily stretch there (west) but the post college kids make the area not really friendly for families unless you can own your own townhouse. The demand to live in the West Village by the post collegers and especially singles means rent is expensive and buildings are never improved. There is a lot of crap. Hookers on the piers coming in on the PATH, the dirtyness of both Houston and 14th Street. The West Village likes to be all charming, but it really doesn't live up in my opinion. Certainly it is convenient to a lot of areas.

What about Cobble Hill?

To me, it's all about the balance among access (including the routine subway ride to/from the location--the service, people, etc.), the general cosmetics, the "people climate," and the quality of the apartment, etc.

Holeckta, West Village may be overrated from some people's perspectives, but it is centrally located. It's pretty much in the MIDDLE of it all. That is the difference between West VIllage and B'lyn. Sure, if you live and work in B'lyn, and everything/everybody in your life is there, then the proximity to central Manhattan might not even be relevant.

For me, again, since most of my professional and personal events happen in Manhattan, Park Slope is just too far from Manhattan on the train, and I don't particularly enjoy the train ride. I might consider Brooklyn Heights, but, then, I am not too crazy about living among older people and/or younger people with double strollers...

We're planning to move to Brooklyn and our friends say they'll never come visit us. We've been looking in Williamsburg and Boerum Hill, which seems to have better subway access than Cobble Hill -- I guess to some extent it depends where you work. Most of our clients seem to be around Union Square.

Holeckta, I wish more people agreed with you. Rents would be cheaper. Unfortunately a lot of people regard it as one of the most desirable places to live in NY.

Holeckta, your post is colored with assumptions of what people value because your view is personal--not everyone shares some of your fundamental desires. You mention, for example, the importance of a "family friendly" neighborhood and affordable price points. That, to many people, means among other things restaurants where kids are welcome and a child acting up a little won't bother anyone, and plenty of room to park the strollers and other kids to interact with, all at an affordable price point. That is not what many others desire. Some people prefer childless, grown up venues that are variably chic/upscale/hip/new/hopping/innovative/exciting--anything but filled with those strollers, the tantrums, the diaper changes, all that goes along with kids. I don't see why every neighborhood needs to be "affordable" or why those that cost more to live and play should be criticized.

PS is great, and more affordable for families? Terrific. There's no need for me to run down crime stats and problem areas in surrounding Brooklyn neighborhoods or block. That would not change the basic character of PS. In 20 years I've lived in or near GV, I have never been troubled by prostitutes on the piers--I have a suggestion: don't go to the piers to see the prostitutes. What are you doing by the piers anyway? And let's not even begin to talk about pros spots in Bklyn. All in all, the 6th Pct covering GV is actually one of the lowest crime areas in the entire 5 boroughs. Store closings concern you? Have you looked to see the impact of this economy on the small shops in Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Bklyn Hghts, PS? You think that store closings are limited to Manh or GV? You point to restaurants you don't like in GV. Well, I guess if your world is about inexpensive Mexican takeout you would have the view you do. I would frankly point out Blue Hill, Minnetta Tavern, Perry Street, and small treasures like Home and Po as well as a host of other places that are on many people's lists of best eateries in GV and the city.

Like what you like, but these silly ad hominem attacks on a great area to live don't add to these discussions and seem more expressions of a desire to rationalize the limitations imposed by one's own life choices and the consequences, feelings of financial inadequacy, or some other insecurities.

I lived in Brooklyn for 11 years (Williamsburg and Brooklyn Heights). I absolutely adored Brooklyn, especially Park Slope. I even came very close to buying a co-op in Midwood, another neighborhood I love.

But let's get real here. If you live that far into Brooklyn, getting into and out of Manhattan is a pain in the ass, and a major time commitment. There's nothing wrong with living in Brooklyn, if you actually want to LIVE in Brooklyn. But if your work and social life are centered around Manhattan, you'll be "living" on the subway more than you would be living in Brooklyn.

LOL. "I have a suggestion: don't go to the piers to see the prostitutes. What are you doing by the piers anyway?"

I'm also curious about the "bad porno stores" in the WV. Can you point me to where I can find some good ones?

matt--another call for your expertise.

Brooklyn is the most populous borough in NYC. I highly doubt you want more people moving there. Think of the traffic.

How do Park Slope rental prices compare to UWS?

Kyle, great posts, fair overview.... although I'd add that you were extremely kind to PS in terms of restaurants vs. W. Village.

In the end, it comes down to compromises.

My personal take is that this is not really a city for compromise, its a city for extremes (although a little less so in the last few years). There are cities with good restaurants that cost much less. There are cities with good art scenes that cost much less. There are cities with sections cleaner and quieter than PS (some with brownstones). There are better public schools in many places than NYC (particularly at the high school level).

This town seems to have always been about "best" this and "best" that, and putting up with more pain on one side to get more of the "best". Not saying this is better or worse, its just what it is... to a lesser degree than 10 or 20 years ago, but still there. A city of extremes. Some people love it, others move, others try to find their compromise within the city.

But other cities do compromise much better than we do IMHO.... and, many of the reasons I've heard folks explain why they love Park Slope or other semi-suburban neighborhoods could be applied to a lot of places, many of them in other cities.

Brooklyn is not a substitute for Manhattan. It's a different place. I've lived in every borough (except Staten Island, which is more like NJ anyway) and prefer Brooklyn to all the others. But then I spend most of my free time in Brooklyn. It makes sense to live where you enjoy being (assuming it's in your budget); it doesn't make sense to look at any outer borough and fool yourself into thinking it's an extension of Manhattan.

Density means services. I'm not talking about total pop. of the borough! The "middle class" or "yuppie" areas of Bk don't have the same population density of comparable areas in Manhattan. Also, Manhattan gets much more foot traffic from workers & tourists.

Another good point.... its a huge difference whether or not you spend most of your time in Manhattan. If you're a housewife who likes to take the stroller around the hood, thats great. A writer who stays home and is ok with the local fare, great.

But I think its a whole 'nother world when it becomes a commute. All the glorious quick commutes become something else at 2am. I once had a friend comment that her $$ savings from moving to Brooklyn were eaten up by the cab rides. I don't think thats indicative of most folks, but its just interesting to note.

"Density means services. I'm not talking about total pop. of the borough! The "middle class" or "yuppie" areas of Bk don't have the same population density of comparable areas in Manhattan."

Agreed.

I think its back to the compromise angle again... with density comes choices.

nyc10022,

No.

The Village is nice but because it gets so romanticized and can't possibly live up to the romantic notions, it often fails. If the expectations were lower, for example if it were just considered an upper west side or something, it might have a chance to standout. Kyle, you have valid points but you are romanticizing, most people aren't eating at Blue Hill, Minnetta Tavern, Perry Street, Home and Po. Those are special occasion places, and it is easy to travel to a special occasion destination.

So BeaverW: if it doesn't matter where the special occasion places are, why don't they locate uptown or in Brookly where the rents are cheaper? If these restauranteurs could make more money elsewhere, they probably would right?

I suspect you will find that nobody wants to travel uptown to go to a great restaurant (even were they there). Why? Probably because they "romaticize" the village and their expectations have been met so they keep coming back, not just for the food.

Actually, Beaver, I think it is presumptuous--and a little weird--for you to tell me that the life I live is not real. Po and Home are hardly blow-out meal restaurants reserved for special occassions. As someone who actually lives in the Village and doesn't just think about doing so or limit my contact to visits, I can say unequivocally that I my view you get what you pay for. It is a pricey area, but the central Village is, for me, about as good as it gets. I don't go through life lowering my expectations so everything seems relatively great.

But I'm not here to convince anyone of anything in terms of where is best for them to be. Nor to call them delusional if they choose somewhere I find sterile, lacking in diversity, far from conveniences, etc.

The market pretty accurately addresses these issues and I think you are on shaky ground if you start arguing that somehow the RE market is "delusional" in the central Vilalge. Are you saying everyone willing to pay more to live in a neighborhood is crazy? Perhaps, just perhaps, a neighborhood commanding top-dollar compared to others is not a market glitch but rather reflects the strong, well-founded demand of many to live there.

malthus, that's a great point. do i love the restaurants in the east village for the food alone, or also because they are in the east village, which i love. (i like the central village dining as well, although i don't get over there as often. if you have kids, try Otto. i love home.) going to the east village makes me happy, it makes sense that i'd like to break bread and quaff wine there as well.

to each his/her own.

The village has plenty of everyday spots: extra virgin, tartine, kingswood, the list goes on. if you want burgers, you have stoned crow, corner bistro, five guys, blt burger all within a 10 minute walk of each other. you can pick from little lounges, wine bars, and pubs. i think it's hard to argue the village doesn't have lots of great choices for nightlife/restaurants. if i were going to pick a neighbhorhood that I think has plenty of "destination" restuarants but fewer neighbhorhood spots, I would say Tribeca is that neighbhorhood. but not the village.

it's hard to say the village is over-rated in terms of ammenities/services. the biggest "problem" with the village is that housing is so expensive - perhaps this is what people mean by "overrated." housing is so expensive because the neighbhorhood is desirable, there aren't a ton of high buildings (except for fringes of the village), and there aren't a lot of large apartments, so what large ones there are.
the tradeoff in terms of what you get for your $$$ may not be worth it for some people. i can see why people with kids may not find it ideal (although it is a desirable family neighbhorhood - which is part of the reason it has great public schools).

however, I would say this: if money were no object, most people I know who live in the city and who don't have kids yet say they would chose live in the west village. if money were no object, even many with kids would (but many prefer UES/UWS because of the access to the park and a greater variety of schools). that's not to say that everybody I know does live in the village, because many of them decide they'd rather live in a doorman building on 22nd and 3rd than a 3rd floor walkup in the village.
but they are making a tradeoff.

Well said kspeak. Not to mention arguably the best collection of excellent Italian places in Manhattan, most of which are not "destinations."

Since we're comparing boroughs I hasten to point out that Brooklyn has plenty of lousy housing stock, ugly tenements, and college students, too.
Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

"Kyle, you have valid points but you are romanticizing, most people aren't eating at Blue Hill, Minnetta Tavern, Perry Street, Home and Po"

Funny you chose Po... I ate at the 5th avenue (BROOKLYN) one (not very good). But Heath & Michelle did try and jump the line... ;-)

But, bigger point, its not just those places. Its the huge number of great smaller and cheaper places, too. Which, I think, are even better in W Village respectively. Ino (or eno) I think of. I love that place (doesn't it show). Joe's slices. That weird cheesesteak place. Arturos. The 57 blue ribbons. The cheap batali.

People do definitely eat at those places regularly.

And, yes, you can take the subway in to Blue Hill. You can also take in the LIRR and the path train.

kspeak... good response, although be careful... 5 guys in Brooklyn Heights, too. But the point is still very valid.

With density brings choice...

And you bring up another good point.... folks with all the money in the world do pick Manhattan by far.

Brooklyn can be some great... well, there is that word again... compromise... but its just that.

Oh! How could we be leaving out Mas Farmhouse (one of the most romantic restaurants in the city and always amazing--and wallet busting). And Blue Ribbon Bakery for brunch.

Gotta go. Can't wait to get home and take the puppy out for a walk to that awesome new fountain.

Re the Village, it was a real toss-up for us when deciding between there and the west 70s. In the end we chose the latter because at that point in our lives proximity to Lincoln Center and an extra room for the $ won out. If we wanted the train vs. walking, and even more space for the money, we'd have considered Brooklyn. As many of you have said, everybody does that priority-juggling, and all of us tout the advantages of the neighborhoods in which we end up. No call to bad-mouth other neighborhoods because they're not ours.

Source: As of 01 JUL 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn,_ny

Manhattan New York 1,634,795
The Bronx Bronx 1,391,903
Brooklyn Kings 2,556,598
Queens Queens 2,293,007
Staten Island Richmond 487,407
-----------------------------------------
Total 8,363,710

Looks like plenty of people live in Brooklyn to me. AND, if Brooklyn was an independent city, it would be the 4th most populous city in the USA.

Ooops, damn formating...

Manhattan.......New York..1,634,795
The Bronx.......Bronx.....1,391,903
Brooklyn........Kings.....2,556,598
Queens..........Queens....2,293,007
Staten Island...Richmond....487,407
-----------------------------------
Total.....................8,363,710

BKLYN has a lot of ppl.

Um, no. Absolutely not. Brooklyn has a lot of Brooklynites.

alanhart comes in off the bench and immediately starts landing some haymakers!

Very funny, alanhart!

NWT: you are/were us. When we moved to NYC in '99, it was a choice between the Village (say central-ish Christopher & Bleecker) and the W60s/70s. Price was the factor. My partner wanted clean, modern, doorman. Our 1br dman was $2150, slightly less nice apts in the Village (if you could find one) were 3k+.

KW: stop going on about restos. You are making me so jealous. We spend the same amount of $ on crapola restos here on the UWS.

Ah, not '99, '98 - our 1br was adjusted to 2300ish in 99.

alanfart,

You remind me of Mayor Bloomberg.

BookToBrooklyn - I posted an almost identical comment over Memorial Day Week-end after making my first trip ever to Park Slope (after living in manhattan for over 25 years.) I was blown away - it was not what I expected AT ALL. I think the side streets and townhouses on Prospect Park West beat any in Manhattan and with 3 children (and probably another to come) I really took to the "neighborhood feel". I think this area could REALLY take off if it hasn't already. I am practically "born and bred" manhattan but would live there in a heartbeat if I could convince my wife -a die hard UES'er. So you pay a little more for private transportation and make it up with lower housing costs.

nyc10023, right, finding one was the problem. I was fixated on prewar at the time, but not a townhouse. In retrospect we could've gone for, say, 45 W 10th, not had the spare room to fill with crap, and been just fine.

As much as I love my choices and the central Village, I'm not unaware of the charms of PS and environs. I spent time on 2nd St and 6th Ave in PS in the 80's as the area was in the midst of a renaissance of sorts. The biggest draw back that I couldn't get past was the travel time. Days and nights go quickly in NYC and the time I was spending on trains, waiting for trains, figuring out alternate routes when there were problems with trains...it all added up to a ton of time. And in snow storms or on rainy days, the 15-20 minute walk to the subway ensured I was a soggy mess when I got to where I was going in Manhattan. Taxis aren't on option for going into Manh since none cruise the area (none I'd get into anyway) and car services really take planning and add up $$$. And while friends did come out to see me and my b/f there, they'd only do it like once every 6-12 months--we were always going into Manhattan to see them/meet for dinner/join them for movies/etc. I think these are factors that have to be considered. As another said, living in nyc takes compromises no matter which neighborhood. These were the issues I couldn't get past for me and the way I live and my priorities.

If I had kids with play dates and a social network of parents and kids on my street, I'd probably

"Oh! How could we be leaving out Mas Farmhouse (one of the most romantic restaurants in the city and always amazing--and wallet busting). And Blue Ribbon Bakery for brunch. "

I didn't! I said blue ribbons plural! ;-) Bread pudding!

Personally, I do like many areas of Brooklyn, Cobble Hill is probably my favorite... but PS is just a little too far, a little too lacking on the restaurant front, a little too just not enough...

Plus, it is amazing to me how many people I've heard say they won't go to brooklyn (for parties / bars) etc. from manhattan. Granted, about 1/3 eventually moved to brooklyn, but there is definitely a major gap on the socializing with manhattanites side.

I am surprised at how many Manhattanites have never been to Bk. I ventured to PS (my first visit to Bk) a year after I'd moved to Manhattan. Guess I'm more curious than the average person. I've been to: PS, FG, Bk Hts, CG, CH, Boerum Hill, Coney Island, Bay Ridge, Crown Hts, Prospect Hts, Lefferts Hts/Manor, Bk Navy Yard, Red Hook, driven through Bensonhurst. Not as adventurous in Qns: Flushing, Rego Park, Woodhaven, Utopia Pkway area. Bx: Van Courtland Pk. SI: never really visited but I did the SI half-marathon.

Yup, its a lot. And I'm not saying they're anything but idiots in this case, but it doesn't change the fact that its still going to make socializing difficult cross river.

Kyle described the phenomenon pretty well.

If you are comfortable being 100% brooklyn, great, but you are across a river.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to learn to speak Brooklyn?

No one remembers the sign "'Welcome to Brooklyn--The fourth largest city in America"?

if your life is in the Village and you end up on UWS/UES, your transportation time (cab or train) will be the same as to Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill. there's just that mentality of leaving the island... people will live in Inwood just to say that they are on the island of Manhattan. in reality it will take them so long to get to the clubs/restaurants/bars in prime Manhattan, that they may as well live in Brooklyn.

> No one remembers the sign "'Welcome to Brooklyn--The fourth largest city in America"?

That was actually before a number of other cities grew bigger (and Brooklyn actually got smaller).

^^---- No, Brooklyn would still be #4 on the list...

1. NYC
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. Brooklyn
5. Houston (Don't let the "Metropolitan" Population throw you off. Metro NYC would +30 Million.)

I'm a BK fan and sorry, it's much easier to get from UWS to the village by cab. You have to find a cab in Bk first.

Cabs: that's one huge advantage of Brooklyn over the real alternative; Jersey City/Hoboken, etc. What should be a $15 - $20 cab ride costs you $50.

"I'm a BK fan and sorry, it's much easier to get from UWS to the village by cab. You have to find a cab in Bk first."

Definitely true for much of Brooklyn. It's a cakewalk from Williamsburg though.

30yrs - true, but I'd take the PATH over the F train any day.

bjw2103,

You are so full of agenda its not funny. BTW you live in a neighborhood that has lots of squatters and its a cakewalk for them.

mutombo, yes, commenting on an quick trip from one neighborhood to another is indicative of an agenda. I can see why you're so afraid of me spreading this information. Seriously, maybe you should stop sniffing around for me every chance you get - it's really creepy. Stay classy.

I live in Downtown Brooklyn / Brooklyn Heights & fortunately, taxi's are not a problem for me when I need them... which is maybe once a month but more when friends & family visit. They "must" ride taxi's everywhere and subways be damned - even though my location has so many subway choices.

bjw2103 aka the unhappy bubble mortgage holder.

"30yrs - true, but I'd take the PATH over the F train any day."

I used to think the same thing until very recently: when I had to go my friends house near Journal Square after midnite on a weekend and found out it runs like once an hour. Took me like 2 hours door to door from a diner 1 block from the Christopher St stop, picking up some groceries and walking 8 blocks.

Isn't Going West an equal option to Park Slope? What about life in Hoboken or Jersey City?

> 5. Houston (Don't let the "Metropolitan" Population throw you off. Metro NYC would +30 Million.)

But we're not talking metro NYC, we're talking Brooklyn.
Metro NYC MSA is closer to 15 million...

Brooklyn (Kings) is a county... I think its fair to compare county to county....

"Isn't Going West an equal option to Park Slope? What about life in Hoboken or Jersey City?"

No. As 30yrs just pointed out, when you're out of the MTA subway system, you might as well be living in Connecticut as far as public transportation is concerned.

And life in Hoboken or Jersey City is fine, if you want to actually live your life in Hoboken or Jersey City.

My view is that if you live in Brooklyn, you want your social life to be in Brooklyn too. This is somewhat less true for the closer parts of Brooklyn (e.g., Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill), but I think definitely true for places like Park Slope. I would say Hoboken is more convenient to the city than Park Slope, if you're near that one Path Station. But I'd also say most parts of Brooklyn are far more culturally interesting than Hoboken, which has a little bit of a fratty feel.

"I think this area could REALLY take off if it hasn't already." stealth1 - you're kidding, right? Methinks you're just a TEENY bit behind the curve if you're waiting for Park Slope to "take off" as a neighborhood....

Funny you chose Po... I ate at the 5th avenue (BROOKLYN) one (not very good). But Heath & Michelle did try and jump the line... ;-)

*
That's interesting because there has never been a Po on 5th Avenue. It's in Carroll Gardens on Smith Street.

And Heath Ledger committed suicide over a year ago.

You basically just discredited yourself.

30yrs - the late night PATH is a drag, don't get me wrong. But it isn't that bad. It runs all night on a half hour schedule after midnight (2:30 am on Saturday night). It also runs on a fixed schedule so you can hang out in the diner until 5 minutes before it leaves.
The F train is more of random mess with regular weekend service interruptions.
The best train is no train - live in the boro that you work in.

darryl, once you get the dread yellow plates on your car, you're doomed. You're off the Island.

If you live in Park Slope, there is the 2/3 train at Bergen or Grand Army Plaza (10 minutes to Wall Street and 20 to Times Square) or the Q train is at 7th Avenue (4 stops to Union Square and 6 to Times Square). Then there's Atlantic Terminal with 10 trains lines.

The best part of Park Slope (and the area with the most beautiful homes and co-ops in the historic district) is located in the North near these trains. The south part of Park Slope (while still incredibly beautiful) is the portion located closer to the F train (and the soon to be G train which is extending to Park Slope starting in July). Comparing the 24 hour subway access in Brooklyn to the very limited night time train service in NJ is basically apples and oranges.

Check this out if you haven't see it already:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2007/10/02/2007-10-02_park_slope_named_one_of_the_10_best_neig.html

> You basically just discredited yourself.

Yes, you proved that I never ate there!

Seriously, what's your point?

Not only did you never eat there, but it's not even on 5th Avenue or in Park Slope for that matter.

And the celebrity name you dropped was of someone who is now dead.

A couple of comments on this subject: 1. it is funny that conversations about brooklyn vs manhattan (or anywhere else) always seem to take either PS or Wburg as a signature example of what Brooklyn is and extrapolate everything from there. in other words, there seems to be a tendency to see brooklyn as either a baby-filled, pretty, boring pseudo-suburbia or a 20-something, 'hipster', artsy downtown substitute. this conversation seems to have focused on PS so far...
2. I agree with all those who say that you can't really determine across the board, for everyone, whether manhattan or bk is preferable. As someone who is about to move to PS (who is also single, without kids, and without any near term interest in kids) it was a 'compromise'. Choosing quite a bit more, and much nicer space vs a shorter commute and a bit more neighborhood amenities. But it's no less a compromise to live in a smaller space in order to be on manhattan. Basically, I work at home and needed an office and I wasn't going to get one in my price range in downtown manhattan. Hey, if I had unlimited money, of course, I'd buy a townhouse on Commerce St.
3. Having lived in the southern part of Harlem - it is definitely just as far, if not farther from downtown NYC than much of BK. The same is undoubtedly true of UWS and UES above the 80's. Those areas are certainly closer if you're working in midtown, but otherwise...
4. I would disagree with the grocery store thing, at least as regards PS, there are quite a few good grocery stores in the area (not just bodegas). In terms of high-end restaurants, of course, GV is going to be a bit better. But in terms of a nightlife, I think that GV/LES/EV are as often hellish as they are fun, my first choice would probably be Prospect Heights for bars, actually, but that's just me.

"Not only did you never eat there, but it's not even on 5th Avenue or in Park Slope for that matter.
And the celebrity name you dropped was of someone who is now dead."

Yes, because I could never have eaten there before he died! You cracked the case, Agatha!

btw, if you actually knew brooklyn well, it would have been fairly clear to you exactly why I wrote 5th avenue.

> But it's no less a compromise to live in a smaller space in order to be on manhattan.

Absolutely. Just like spending major $$$ is a compromise. Its all about the compromises we choose.

My point was that Manhattan generally tends to be about the extremes, and Brooklyn much less so.

> But in terms of a nightlife, I think that GV/LES/EV are as often hellish as they
> are fun, my first choice would probably be Prospect Heights for bars, actually, but that's just me.

And some people prefer Boston bars. Or rodeos.

As I said, its about the extremes... and other cities do compromise better than us.

huffafc:

Welcome to PS. You will find many single people in Park Slope actually. While the baby strollers take the majority of the NY Mag stories, according to the statistics, only 24% of Park Slope residents have kids. That's a WHOLE lot of singles and couples.

You are correct with regard to grocery stores in the neighborhood...we have quite a few. 2 huge Key Foods (one on 7th and one on 5th), a great Associated on 5th and Union, Steve's C Town on 5th Avenue, 2 Union Markets...one in the north and one in the South, Blue Apron Foods, BKLYN Larder opening in 2 weeks, a number of fruit and vegetable stands, the Food Co-op (with 18,000 members), and best of the lot in my mind...the Greenmarket at Grand Army Plaza every single Saturday with fruits, vegetables, fish, meat, cheese, etc. It's also a short bus or long walk to the Trader Joe's on Atlantic Avenue.

There are plenty of mediocre restaurants in Park Slope (just as there are in Manhattan) but the standouts in PS are: Blue Ribbon and Blue Ribbon Sushi, Ghenet (Ethiopian), Moim (Korean), Al Di La (one of the best Italian places in all of NYC), La Taqueria, Cafe Steinhoff, Beer Table, Applewood, Stone Park, Alchemy, Bussaco and Rosewater all come to mind as excellent restaurants.

3 new bars have opened in PS in the last month or so, and about 6 have opened in Prospect Heights just since spring, which as you know is the difference between West Village and Central Village...right next to each other. PH is an amazing neighborhood and the bar scene is REALLY taking off on Vanderbilt and Washington Avenues.

The best part of Park Slope...Prospect Park. Central Park is wonderful, but even the designers (who designed both) said that they considered Prospect Park to be their masterpiece.

"Welcome to PS. You will find many single people in Park Slope actually. While the baby strollers take the majority of the NY Mag stories, according to the statistics, only 24% of Park Slope residents have kids. That's a WHOLE lot of singles and couples. "

Not sure how the 'WHOLE lot of couples' fall into the "single" category.

Also, don't forget that there is a sizable portion of "singles" as in widows...

I have a female friend that specifically decided not to live in Park Slope because of the lack of singles.

brokelyn, don't mind nyc10022. He's somehow under the impression that 5th Ave is not a major commercial street in Park Slope.

"I have a female friend that specifically decided not to live in Park Slope because of the lack of singles."

That doesn't mean she wasn't misguided in her assumptions.

brokelyn you're my new favorite poster and I clearly need to kick my Freshdirect addiction and hit the Associated or any of the stores you mentioned that are close to me (just recently moved to PS and I do most of my non-Freshdirect shopping at Fairway). Are you familiar with the organic food place on 5th ave and I wanna say maybe 6th st? I've been meaning to hit them up soon as well.

brokelyn,
Nice post but I have to disagree about Al Di La. That place has been in steady decline for a number of years. My last meal there was so mediocre that I will probably never go back. Also, the menu hasn't changed for as long as I can remember.

Convivium Osteria on 5th and St Marks is a much better restaurant IMO.

Yeah, I've pretty much decided that nyc10022 is a troll.

In fact, I'm sure of it.

Junkman: Yes, I forgot about Convivium Osteria...a VERY fine restaurant.

I still love Al Di La though...I go a couple times a month, and always enjoy it.

"brokelyn, don't mind nyc10022. He's somehow under the impression that 5th Ave is not a major commercial street in Park Slope."

Surprise, surprise, another lie from bjw! And the same lie you tried to pull 3x!

Tourist, you are pathetic!

> That doesn't mean she wasn't misguided in her assumptions.

Yes, the fact that she had already lived there (and her brother still does) had nothing to do with it...

Wow, bjw, you're 2 for 2 on the pathetic scale today!

nyc10022....funny you are calling someone else out for lying, when you just ADMITTED to lying by saying you went to Po then said you didn't.

Po is not and has never been in Park Slope. It's on Smith Street. You're clearly not familiar with the area, so stick to areas (like your mom's basement) of which you are more accustomed.

YOU are the only liar so far on this thread from what I can gather.

"Are you familiar with the organic food place on 5th ave and I wanna say maybe 6th st? I've been meaning to hit them up soon as well."

*
Hmmm...do you mean GetFresh Table and Market? If so, I do love that place. Terrific food and they serve Stumptown Coffee...DELICIOUS! One of the Top Chef guys is the chef there...

I also forget about Back to the Land (organice groceries on 7th and Garfield) and also D'vine Taste on that same block which is AMAZING. Such a nice selection of foods there.

"Surprise, surprise, another lie"

nyc10022, you said these very questionable things in that thread:

"I've never seen any reliable boundary of PS inclued 4th ave. Hell, 5th ave is pushing it."
"And 5th avenue as the main corridor! Hillarious!"

As with your "McCarren Park is dangerous" theory, you should check the facts before you attack others who have a better idea of what they're talking about.

bjw, I'll simply point to the thread.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/6540-williamsburg-supply-and-demand

Your choice... either you

1) can't read and write english properly

or

2) you LIED (again)

sorry, pretty pathetic, tourist.

You lied again. You even lied about what you said, when its in damn black and white.

Thank you for playing, go back to your tourist guide!

brokleyn, have you been to Peperoncino? I'm glad Ghenet opened up a new outpost there as well - I always took out-of-towners to the Nolita spot when I lived there.

> who have a better idea of what they're talking about.

Thats the funniest part. You think because you read it on curbed you know something?

Sorry, but you are NOT the person who knows what they are talking about. Try again though.

Lie, and you might fool someone else.

"nyc10022....funny you are calling someone else out for lying, when you just ADMITTED to lying by saying you went to Po then said you didn't. "

Dude, you aren't too smart. I was being sarcastic on the latter point. You aren't too swift... there was no lie there.

This article is a good one...and makes sure to seal the deal in a number of ways how off base nyc10022 is...

http://www.villagevoice.com/2005-02-01/nyc-life/close-up-on-park-slope/

A particularly good quote:

Twenty-five years ago Park Slope's grittier 5th Avenue was a ghost town. Within a mile radius of the DeGraw Street intersection, there is said to have been more than 200 abandoned buildings and 150 vacant lots. But today's 5th Avenue—known to some as "Central Slope"—is renowned for its French bistros, sake bars, and swank boutiques. Residents can rub shoulders on election day with Senator Chuck Schumer at P.S. 321, one of the city's premiere public elementary schools, or bump into A Beautiful Mind actor Jennifer Connelly dog-walking in a beloved community garden. Even in a squall, New Yorkers of all stripes trek to the Park Slope Food Coop on Union Street for the fresh produce.

"bjw, I'll simply point to the thread."

Post as many links as you want - the facts are there for anyone to read. You try to rip people apart and use ALL CAPS to give your argument the weight it otherwise lacks, yet you yourself don't know the facts.

"You think because you read it on curbed you know something?"

The funniest part is that you think calling someone a tourist will distract from the fact that they actually think before the say something. You either refuse to admit you're wrong or are so utterly convinced by your baloney that you really believe you can never be wrong. Neither will get you too far, unfortunately.