I have heard some negative things about Rockrose's management style, but I am not sure if they are warranted or not, or whether problems renters have (see apartmentratings.com) would translate into sales/condo problems. (Specifically, I have heard their buildings are clean and well maintained, but that the management can be a little heavy handed at times.)
On a positive note, FiDi is a great place to buy if you are looking at (at least) a 3-5-7 timeframe. Prices per square foot are lower than other part of Manhattan, and things there should be booming in the next 3-5 years given all the commercial development. Opportunity for longer term appreciation is great. I would not expect any terrific appreciation over the next 12-18 months, though, given all the building and the potential for a general economic slowdown and uncertainty in the near term.
Also, I think it is already a nice neigborhood, with a couple of gourmet grocers, Gristedes and a lot of dry cleaners and drug stores nearby. 99 John is close to Fulton Street subway, a major transportation center. The neighborhood is quiet, which I find appealing. At the same time, the lower rents down there are attracting a younger crowd, which may lead to a younger vibe over time.
Thanks will. Yes, the area seems fine, but I am curious about the low common charges / rather low taxes that they are charging. I know the taxes are abated a few more years. But are there any hidden costs?
The taxes will go up when the abatement ends. Also, since the building is now a rental, it only last for a relatively brief period of time.
Could be that the lower common charges may relate to the large number of units. One thing I'd keep an eye on is how quickly the building is planning to convert units. I heard something about a slower transition to condos. With fewer condos, could be charges may increase per unit. I am not sure exactly how that would work, but make sure you have a competent lawyer look closely at this during condo doc review if you decide to go ahead.
We bought years ago into a Rockrose development (a troubled one, no less). I think the early buyers might disagree with me, but we had a very positive experience. I think I am still seeing rental listings for 99 John, which would be consistent with what Will is saying. If they don't sell a certain percentage up front, financing could be difficult, resell could be close to impossible and you may be in a situation not much different than being a rental tenant, without a working condo structure.
Rented there for a year in 1999 when it was first built. I would never live in a Rockrose building again - rent or own. The building is great and the apartments are spacious. The neighborhood, at the time, well - no one lived down there but I've heard it's gotten better. Maybe Rockrose has improved but at the time I found them unresponsive, unhelpful and rude. I'm sure (hopeful) that they'll treat condo buyers better.
Could you please explain to me that when you say "If they don't sell a certain percentage up front, financing could be difficult, resell could be close to impossible". What will a development such as the one on 99 john need to finance? They already have the building there - so I am not sure I understand this point well. Thanks for your help.
It could mean that some lenders won't give loans if the building isn't x% sold.
Also, it could mean that you will have difficulty reselling the place if your buyer's lender won't give them a loan if the building isn't x% sold. Or in addition, the psychological effect of the building being y% rentals.
if you buy at 99 john, for your apt to close and the conversion to go throught they need to sell 15 % which in a buliding like 99 john, is roughly 65-70 apts. in the offering plan it states that there aim will be to sell 50 5 and keep 50 rental. but apparently that's normal now with offering plans.
What do people think of the asking prices of the so-called rennovated apts. @ 99 John St. and how do they compare to other condo buildings in the neigborhood?
on top of that I heard a tenant today really upset and rightly so of how she and her family were treated by rockrose, they are a really bad managment group
Although the area will INEVITABLY and DEFINITELY come up in the next 5 years, largely due to the Federal monies coming dedicated to improving the area, I find this building somewhat mysterious.
The sale people won't even tell you if they're engagin in multi-phase sales, or how many units have sold. Our sales woman made a "slip" and insinuated that it was less than 20% sold, when she said "you can get anyone to finance, but you may want to use our mortgage guys because there aren't that many banks out there that would give you financing to purchase an apt in a bldgs with less than 20% sold." But I am not really what to make of this entire situation.
Believe me, the building itself is NICE, and the common areas are quite well-designed and well-appointed. The renovation on the units, while "neutral" and "boring," are still good deals for the price. If we were to purchase, though, we'd probably redo the bathroom ourselves, by removing the "hollywood" vanity and replacing the regular tub with a soaking tub.
Other developments in the area apppear to be selling a bit faster than this one. Does anyone have any sense of why 99 John may be selling a bit slower than others?
it's probably because it's larger than most of the bulidings in the area, we bought in the buliding and the sales office is some what intersting..i deal with brad and he has his days :) over all the staff is super super nice and the area in a few years will be great, specially after the WTC, fulton station and the new schools that will be build.
You bought in the bldg!? Wow, congrats. I saw the place and I really liked it--the bldg is super nice (especially given the $/sqft), I like the area, and the staff (with the exception of this brat called John the receptionist) have been really extremely lovely. Is Brat the Midwestern boy who doesn't appear to be "playing with the full deck?" Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with him yet...
sfo, did you purchase a renovated unit or an "unfinished" one? What is your sense--if I were to purchase, which would be a better deal in the end? I am seriously thinking of buying a 1BR there.
i bought an unrenovated apt, i think that's the better deal so you can have room to negigoate and also do it at your own time and taste. we also liked that the common charges are low, and the reserve fund is huge.
i think brad is the sales manager, he actually cracks me up :)
has any one heard the rent to buy that they are offering ? i like the buliding, its good for the price but there seems to be confusion whteher it's a rental or a condo. they have always had issues with students living there, is it still the case ?
So much inventory in this building and hardly a desirable property. How is it doing lately? Anyone have any knowledge how this is doing based on the current market environment?
Of course, the current financial situation won't help ANY building!
DrZiz, have you actually taken a tour of the bldg.? You say it's "hardly a desirably property," and I am genuinely interested in learning more about your perspective/impression.
I am seriously interested in purchasing (or it's more like I WAS seriously interested in purchasing until yesterday) in FiDi, and 99 John, to me, appeared to be among the best downtown bldgs, especially in terms of price/sf, financials, location, and the bldg quality/the finishes of the common areas (not so much the quality of the renovation in each apt). Sure, it's big, but you can say the same about many Manhattann bldgs...
I'd like to know if there are other "hot" properties in the $1,100/sf range plus reasonable CCs, in FiDi or anywhere else in Manhattan below 96th St.
sfo--thanks for the info. I had the same sense that it would be better to take a unit unrenovated because it is totally "refinished" and I can pick and choose what to renovate, how, and when...
buynyc... I was told that those young people in the bldg are Wall Street interns. With this said, NYU apparently leased a building few blocks down recently to house their undergrads, and not everyone may like that...
There are other nice bldgs in the area, but the prices at comparable bldgs are more in the $1,400/sf-and-up range plus much higher CCs. Is my perception incorrect!?
Have you ever looked at the building at 150 Nassau Street? It faces out onto City Hall park, is fully occupied with low cc's and a 412(g) abatement. The building was completely redone in 2003 into a condo. The key thing is that there is LIGHT. There is nothing facing the building looking north. Also, there is easy access to the Brooklyn Bridge subway station.
nyc212--What else are you seeing in the neighborhood at $1,400 sf+? That seems like very high price in the Financial District, although I do agree that 99 John has comparatively low common charges.
There's resales on the market in buildings like 59 John and 71 Nassau that have somewhat fewer amenities but nicer apartments than 99 John, generally in the range of $1000 - $1100 psf. These have higher common charges than 99 John, due to their relatively small size (on the other hand, they both just started with their tax abatements whereas 99 John's has largely run its course, I think). Prices in 20 Pine vary a lot, but go as low as ~$900 psf, with reasonable common charges considering the amenities (if they ever get built). And then there's several lower-end buildings, all below $1000 psf, such as 90 William, 80 John, and 15 Broad.
Thanks for your quick replies, vikingal and jordyn. The information you've provided will help me tremendously!
In FiDi, I've been looking at 88 Greenwich, 75 Wall St., etc. where the prices are in the $1,400/range... While the Greenwich Club is considerably nice than 99 John, 75 Wall is pretty much similar to 99 John, I felt.
I also saw some units at 59 John, which wasn't as nice (or bright, if you can imagine that!) as 99 John... From what I understand, the projected CCs for the 1 BRs I saw at 59 John would end up in the $2,000 range, which was too high for my "taste."
jordyn, the units I saw at 20 Pine ranged more in the $1,300 range, so I will keep my eye open for a better deal. I will check 71 Nassau out.
Finally--While 150 Nassau sounds great, vikingal, nothing in my range (size-wise) appears to be available. They are either too big or too small...
Again, thanks for the info. I will check these bldgs out!
nyc212--Did you see 59 John or 45 John? 59 John is already completed; 45 John is still under construction.
75 Wall is definitely expensive, but I think quite a bit nicer than 99 John. 88 Greenwich should be well under $1400, unless you are looking at units on the top 4 or 5 floors. I looked at a 1BR with decent views and a decent terrace in 88 Greenwich, and it was only $1200 psf. Keep in mind they're also on the tail end of their tax abatement, though.
Honestly, though, now doesn't feel like a great time to be buying in most of these buildings. The larger buildings all have a ton of inventory available for rent at a significant discount to what you'd pay to live there. I'd probably go that route and wait for the projects under construction to be completed to see what effect that has (combined with ongoing other issues) on pricing before buying something. Put aside the money you save in the meantime to make yourself feel better on the small chance that prices do rise.
we looked at 45, 59, 80 john, 90 william , district and 75 wall , 15 broad, adn 25 braod and in comparsion to space vs price, 99 john was the best price and common charges.
sfo--how much of a difference was there in pricing between the rennovated units and the non-rennovated ones? The rennovations really weren't anything special and I'd probably want to re-do parts of it were I to buy there.
Does anyone know what's going on with the sales effort here? With banks being reluctant to finance new conversions w/ less than "X%" sold, is 99 John doing alright? Have they started to slash prices?
Their website no longer allows visitors to check "availability" of the units--you will now be taken to a page where they ask you to register your contact info. Does this mean they aren't selling well--or perhaps they are slashing prices?
The Streeteasy listing has never been accurate for this development (i.e., they have 400 units for sale but most aren't even listed here, and no sales have been recorded)...
99 john
has anyone explored purchasing at 99 john? what are the pros and cons?
I have heard some negative things about Rockrose's management style, but I am not sure if they are warranted or not, or whether problems renters have (see apartmentratings.com) would translate into sales/condo problems. (Specifically, I have heard their buildings are clean and well maintained, but that the management can be a little heavy handed at times.)
On a positive note, FiDi is a great place to buy if you are looking at (at least) a 3-5-7 timeframe. Prices per square foot are lower than other part of Manhattan, and things there should be booming in the next 3-5 years given all the commercial development. Opportunity for longer term appreciation is great. I would not expect any terrific appreciation over the next 12-18 months, though, given all the building and the potential for a general economic slowdown and uncertainty in the near term.
Also, I think it is already a nice neigborhood, with a couple of gourmet grocers, Gristedes and a lot of dry cleaners and drug stores nearby. 99 John is close to Fulton Street subway, a major transportation center. The neighborhood is quiet, which I find appealing. At the same time, the lower rents down there are attracting a younger crowd, which may lead to a younger vibe over time.
I would go for it, but negotiate!
Thanks will. Yes, the area seems fine, but I am curious about the low common charges / rather low taxes that they are charging. I know the taxes are abated a few more years. But are there any hidden costs?
The taxes will go up when the abatement ends. Also, since the building is now a rental, it only last for a relatively brief period of time.
Could be that the lower common charges may relate to the large number of units. One thing I'd keep an eye on is how quickly the building is planning to convert units. I heard something about a slower transition to condos. With fewer condos, could be charges may increase per unit. I am not sure exactly how that would work, but make sure you have a competent lawyer look closely at this during condo doc review if you decide to go ahead.
Just be careful about the stated square footage. Also, the potential of downtown also comes with the massive construction.
We bought years ago into a Rockrose development (a troubled one, no less). I think the early buyers might disagree with me, but we had a very positive experience. I think I am still seeing rental listings for 99 John, which would be consistent with what Will is saying. If they don't sell a certain percentage up front, financing could be difficult, resell could be close to impossible and you may be in a situation not much different than being a rental tenant, without a working condo structure.
Rented there for a year in 1999 when it was first built. I would never live in a Rockrose building again - rent or own. The building is great and the apartments are spacious. The neighborhood, at the time, well - no one lived down there but I've heard it's gotten better. Maybe Rockrose has improved but at the time I found them unresponsive, unhelpful and rude. I'm sure (hopeful) that they'll treat condo buyers better.
Could you please explain to me that when you say "If they don't sell a certain percentage up front, financing could be difficult, resell could be close to impossible". What will a development such as the one on 99 john need to finance? They already have the building there - so I am not sure I understand this point well. Thanks for your help.
It could mean that some lenders won't give loans if the building isn't x% sold.
Also, it could mean that you will have difficulty reselling the place if your buyer's lender won't give them a loan if the building isn't x% sold. Or in addition, the psychological effect of the building being y% rentals.
if you buy at 99 john, for your apt to close and the conversion to go throught they need to sell 15 % which in a buliding like 99 john, is roughly 65-70 apts. in the offering plan it states that there aim will be to sell 50 5 and keep 50 rental. but apparently that's normal now with offering plans.
What do people think of the asking prices of the so-called rennovated apts. @ 99 John St. and how do they compare to other condo buildings in the neigborhood?
offering price is crazy for thier cheap renovation
on top of that I heard a tenant today really upset and rightly so of how she and her family were treated by rockrose, they are a really bad managment group
Although the area will INEVITABLY and DEFINITELY come up in the next 5 years, largely due to the Federal monies coming dedicated to improving the area, I find this building somewhat mysterious.
The sale people won't even tell you if they're engagin in multi-phase sales, or how many units have sold. Our sales woman made a "slip" and insinuated that it was less than 20% sold, when she said "you can get anyone to finance, but you may want to use our mortgage guys because there aren't that many banks out there that would give you financing to purchase an apt in a bldgs with less than 20% sold." But I am not really what to make of this entire situation.
Believe me, the building itself is NICE, and the common areas are quite well-designed and well-appointed. The renovation on the units, while "neutral" and "boring," are still good deals for the price. If we were to purchase, though, we'd probably redo the bathroom ourselves, by removing the "hollywood" vanity and replacing the regular tub with a soaking tub.
Other developments in the area apppear to be selling a bit faster than this one. Does anyone have any sense of why 99 John may be selling a bit slower than others?
it's probably because it's larger than most of the bulidings in the area, we bought in the buliding and the sales office is some what intersting..i deal with brad and he has his days :) over all the staff is super super nice and the area in a few years will be great, specially after the WTC, fulton station and the new schools that will be build.
You bought in the bldg!? Wow, congrats. I saw the place and I really liked it--the bldg is super nice (especially given the $/sqft), I like the area, and the staff (with the exception of this brat called John the receptionist) have been really extremely lovely. Is Brat the Midwestern boy who doesn't appear to be "playing with the full deck?" Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with him yet...
sfo, did you purchase a renovated unit or an "unfinished" one? What is your sense--if I were to purchase, which would be a better deal in the end? I am seriously thinking of buying a 1BR there.
Thanks, and please keep us posted on this bldg.
i bought an unrenovated apt, i think that's the better deal so you can have room to negigoate and also do it at your own time and taste. we also liked that the common charges are low, and the reserve fund is huge.
i think brad is the sales manager, he actually cracks me up :)
has any one heard the rent to buy that they are offering ? i like the buliding, its good for the price but there seems to be confusion whteher it's a rental or a condo. they have always had issues with students living there, is it still the case ?
So much inventory in this building and hardly a desirable property. How is it doing lately? Anyone have any knowledge how this is doing based on the current market environment?
Of course, the current financial situation won't help ANY building!
DrZiz, have you actually taken a tour of the bldg.? You say it's "hardly a desirably property," and I am genuinely interested in learning more about your perspective/impression.
I am seriously interested in purchasing (or it's more like I WAS seriously interested in purchasing until yesterday) in FiDi, and 99 John, to me, appeared to be among the best downtown bldgs, especially in terms of price/sf, financials, location, and the bldg quality/the finishes of the common areas (not so much the quality of the renovation in each apt). Sure, it's big, but you can say the same about many Manhattann bldgs...
I'd like to know if there are other "hot" properties in the $1,100/sf range plus reasonable CCs, in FiDi or anywhere else in Manhattan below 96th St.
sfo--thanks for the info. I had the same sense that it would be better to take a unit unrenovated because it is totally "refinished" and I can pick and choose what to renovate, how, and when...
buynyc... I was told that those young people in the bldg are Wall Street interns. With this said, NYU apparently leased a building few blocks down recently to house their undergrads, and not everyone may like that...
There are other nice bldgs in the area, but the prices at comparable bldgs are more in the $1,400/sf-and-up range plus much higher CCs. Is my perception incorrect!?
Hey nyc212,
Have you ever looked at the building at 150 Nassau Street? It faces out onto City Hall park, is fully occupied with low cc's and a 412(g) abatement. The building was completely redone in 2003 into a condo. The key thing is that there is LIGHT. There is nothing facing the building looking north. Also, there is easy access to the Brooklyn Bridge subway station.
nyc212--What else are you seeing in the neighborhood at $1,400 sf+? That seems like very high price in the Financial District, although I do agree that 99 John has comparatively low common charges.
There's resales on the market in buildings like 59 John and 71 Nassau that have somewhat fewer amenities but nicer apartments than 99 John, generally in the range of $1000 - $1100 psf. These have higher common charges than 99 John, due to their relatively small size (on the other hand, they both just started with their tax abatements whereas 99 John's has largely run its course, I think). Prices in 20 Pine vary a lot, but go as low as ~$900 psf, with reasonable common charges considering the amenities (if they ever get built). And then there's several lower-end buildings, all below $1000 psf, such as 90 William, 80 John, and 15 Broad.
Thanks for your quick replies, vikingal and jordyn. The information you've provided will help me tremendously!
In FiDi, I've been looking at 88 Greenwich, 75 Wall St., etc. where the prices are in the $1,400/range... While the Greenwich Club is considerably nice than 99 John, 75 Wall is pretty much similar to 99 John, I felt.
I also saw some units at 59 John, which wasn't as nice (or bright, if you can imagine that!) as 99 John... From what I understand, the projected CCs for the 1 BRs I saw at 59 John would end up in the $2,000 range, which was too high for my "taste."
jordyn, the units I saw at 20 Pine ranged more in the $1,300 range, so I will keep my eye open for a better deal. I will check 71 Nassau out.
Finally--While 150 Nassau sounds great, vikingal, nothing in my range (size-wise) appears to be available. They are either too big or too small...
Again, thanks for the info. I will check these bldgs out!
nyc212--Did you see 59 John or 45 John? 59 John is already completed; 45 John is still under construction.
75 Wall is definitely expensive, but I think quite a bit nicer than 99 John. 88 Greenwich should be well under $1400, unless you are looking at units on the top 4 or 5 floors. I looked at a 1BR with decent views and a decent terrace in 88 Greenwich, and it was only $1200 psf. Keep in mind they're also on the tail end of their tax abatement, though.
Honestly, though, now doesn't feel like a great time to be buying in most of these buildings. The larger buildings all have a ton of inventory available for rent at a significant discount to what you'd pay to live there. I'd probably go that route and wait for the projects under construction to be completed to see what effect that has (combined with ongoing other issues) on pricing before buying something. Put aside the money you save in the meantime to make yourself feel better on the small chance that prices do rise.
er, buy "significant discount to what you'd pay to live there" I meant "pay to BUY there".
Agreed.
When you can rent in these buildings for $2500, anythingover $1k a square foot starts looking pretty ridiculous.
we looked at 45, 59, 80 john, 90 william , district and 75 wall , 15 broad, adn 25 braod and in comparsion to space vs price, 99 john was the best price and common charges.
sfo--how much of a difference was there in pricing between the rennovated units and the non-rennovated ones? The rennovations really weren't anything special and I'd probably want to re-do parts of it were I to buy there.
i think you can get 7-10 % less. it depends on whether you can negoitate also the closing costs. I think these days you can ask for a little bit more.
There is always a lot of noise coming from this building. Is there a terrace bar there?
Does anyone know what's going on with the sales effort here? With banks being reluctant to finance new conversions w/ less than "X%" sold, is 99 John doing alright? Have they started to slash prices?
Offer 20% off- I know they are making deals.
Their website no longer allows visitors to check "availability" of the units--you will now be taken to a page where they ask you to register your contact info. Does this mean they aren't selling well--or perhaps they are slashing prices?
The Streeteasy listing has never been accurate for this development (i.e., they have 400 units for sale but most aren't even listed here, and no sales have been recorded)...
Any input would be appreciated... Thanks!
I heard they are renting again.
they are offering rent to buy, i tink your first 6 months rent go towards your downpayment
nyc212..acris list 70 sales so far and they are usually behind, i heard 100 or so