Central Harlem or Williamsburg

central harlem has a better feel, more historic buildings around than just new condos. rather live there and the subways are convenient

I don't think you should be comparing Central Harlem to Williamsburg. Central Harlem is in Manhattan, has GREAT transportation options (buses/trains/cabs) incuding the MetroNorth, Bloomberg identified Harlem as one of new york's economic hubs which has lead to the impending rezoning of 125th st to allow for increased density among other things, tourism is up, there are approx. 3-4 hotels that are in the works, Harlem Park will house Major League Baseballs new cable network, Columbia University is expanding further into Harlem and pumping $7 Billion over the next 20 years into Harlem, the NBA Players Assoc. owns property on Lenox Ave between 125th and 126th streets, in East Harlem work is being completed on a huge mall that will house major retail like Target and Home Depot, even the Church of Scientology has recently purchased property in Central Harlem....not to mention that Harlem has an amazing stock of original brownstones and a rich history which is helpful with regards to property values. So, I really don't think that there's any real comparison to be made with Williamsburg.....Harlem is in a completely different league.

dg156 you are spot on!!!

i would not invest or live in either location.

Well it's nice to see the love for Harlem here, but I'm not quite on board with some of the "completely different league" sentiments. Williamsburg is a riskier investment from a purely economic standpoint, but I think there's more upside. The transportation options are lesser, but you are much closer to downtown Manhattan. Even with the express 2 or 3 (or if you walk over to the 4/5, depending on where you are), it can take quite a while to get to the village, SoHo, etc. from central Harlem, so if you spend a lot of time around those areas, the additional options aren't necessarily beneficial. Harlem is more established, no doubt, but there's a little too much in the way of fast food, crappy shopping, and businesses that you wouldn't particularly care for. It will take a while before those are replaced with more desirable options. With WB, things are constantly moving in now, so they're getting more interesting and unique choices (from my perspective). Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in Columbia's expansion, the MLB network, and especially the "Church" of Scientology. Those *may* help push property values, but in terms of living there, it means squat. To be needlessly reductive, maybe rather buy in Harlem right now, but much rather live in WB.

bjw2103, I was thinking something very similar. You saved me the typing.

bjw103 - give me a break. Transportation is about having options in case one of those reliable MTA lines shuts down. so you're so close to downtown that you have to wet your feet to cross over to Manhattan? and what about when there are transportation disruptions? By the way I can get from 125th st to 59th in approx. 15-20 minutes...not bad in my book. Regarding shopping and restaurants...the rezoning of 125th st will take care of that...although some nice places are popping up now (ie. The Hudson Cafe, Dinosaurs, etc). And so based on your statement, regarding Columbia's expansion, the MLB network, etc, massive investment in a community means nothing? So what does? Face it, for most people purchasing a residence in Manhaatn will be their 1st choice....all else is secondary.

I agree that the L train is a bad line to have to count on exclusively; I've said so in other threads. But for the most part it will get you to the East Village, Union Square and West Village way quicker than any line from Harlem. Also, the 125th St. rezoning has a long way to go (and lots of community opposition) before you can bank on it. I think the main point is that the cultures of Williamsburg and Harlem are dramatically different, and that someone who enjoys Harlem will not necessarily like WB and vise versa. Anyone looking to puchase would hopefully spend ample time in both and choose appropriately (though I also don't feel that either is a good investment right now).

dg156, take it easy, just voicing my opinion. I never talked about getting to 59th St. If you spend a lot of time in Columbus Circle (not sure why, but it does happen), then Harlem is obviously much better. There's no denying that WB is much closer to downtown - I just don't see how you can argue that. If there are "disruptions" (and in my experience, the L isn't quite as bad as some make it out to be), a cab downtown from WB isn't bad at all. Not sure what to make of the "wet your feet" comment - what do you mean? As for shopping, etc., I just think it'll take longer for Harlem to get to the level that I'm looking for. The investment is there and I never said it "means nothing," but I think it really only means "something" to the resale value of your potential property. I don't think those investments do much for your quality of life on a day-to-day basis. Columbia will probably bring some restaurants with it, but that's a byproduct and will take even longer to develop. Not to mention, you'd have to deal with college students more and more (not a bad thing necessarily, just something to consider).

What is better hamburgers or hot dogs? Both have their pros and cons but neither will be confused with SoHo anytime soon.

Thanks everyone this discussion has been helpful.

We are a young couple looking to buy our first condo (not co-op due to concerns about passing a board). Our dream is to live on the upper west side, but we cannot afford a condo there. Cute restaurants, shops and stores are important to me, although not as much to my partner. We work around Union Square, so for those reasons I think that we will probably hope to find something in Williamsburg. Since we can only afford a one bedroom now, we will probably only live there for 5 years-which is maybe not enough time for Harlem to get the stores and shops that I desire?

Do you think that Williamsburg is an unsafe investment?

Transport to and from Wburg is a pain in the butt and will only get worse. Wburg already seems overbuilt with condos . . . . I would say Harlem is probably a somewhat better investment but not wildly, wildly better. Your lifestyle druthers kick in bigtime here.

"Do you think that Williamsburg is an unsafe investment?"

In a word, yes. I'll think you'll need more than 5 years to break even w/ your new dev transaction costs and the fact that your eventual buyers will have to price in higher carrying costs as your tax abatement expiration looms. Take a look at:

http://www.nysun.com/article/72033

Yes, I know, I just posted this on the "idiots" thread, but I thought it was the perfect answer to martine78's question.

martine78, have you looked at co-ops on or west of West End Ave in the UWS? I have friends there and they have a beautiful apartment in a great building. Prices can be 10-20% less (in some cases) than east of Broadway. Boards tend to be a little more relaxed (but not overly relaxed) a good mix. May be worth checking out.

JuiceMan,
We have looked EVERYWHERE! We seem to have the worst real estate luck one could imagine. We have lost in bidding ways, been turned down by a board, lost an apartment with contracts out to last minute higher bids--you name it, we have lived through it over the last 9 months! We are done with co-ops and we want to try our hand at condos?

martine78: I love Manhattan and told myself I wouldn't live anyway else. But one day I decided to have a look at some properties in Williamsbug. It just felt right. It's charming (a feeling I don't think you will get in Harlem - comparing apples to oranges). And as some of the other posters commented, it has a lot of potential to evolve into something greater with its coffee shops, non-national chain stores, eateries, furniture shops and warehouse galleries. I am currently living in the East Village until the building is complete next year. I'm looking forward to the move. Be aware of all the development and abundance of supply though. If you're looking to flip in a year or two, Williamsburg isn't the place for you. But if you plan to stick around for a few more years, I think you will be happy that you're buying now. And you have choices at the moment.

Every now and then I head over and explore. If you want a tour guide or want to discuss more, reach out. I'm a fan. I think you will like Williamsburg.

dg156: "Face it, for most people purchasing a residence in Manhaatn will be their 1st choice....all else is secondary" Just because a neighborhood is in Manhattan doesn't make it the first choice to live (e.g., Chinatown). There is a bit of irony in you saying "all else is secondary."

I think Williamsburg is as good as it's going to get. Manhattan is the only place that will always remain a great place to live and invest.