The whole place is way overpriced. Lic is a developing are with no stores. The most advertised thing about the area is it's proximity to Manhattan. And that's good because you are going to have to go there every time you need to go to the store. Don't waist your time. And the powerhouse is going to have building built right in front of it. The whole place will be one big construction zone for the nest 5 years.
I think that LIC is a great area.
Powerhouse, I agree with DCO on though - it has been probelm filed from the get-go and it's not secret that the waterfront on the other side of the street has plans to be developed with more high-rises.
plenty of nice buildings in the area though. I don't know what your budget is but the Badge Building has very reasonable prices and is a good building - ready to move-in and only 3 units left.
DCO - There is an Amish Market going into LIC this May and it will be a very nice sized market as well. There is also a Duane Reade going in this year. I think that LIC has taken a very long time to develop, but the development is well underway for the neighborhood.
As for the Powerhouse, the building should be very nice once finished and it is priced reasonable for the neighorhood and market at around $600 - $700/sq ft range for most of the units. I have looked at the 5SL by Toll Bros in LIC and must honestly say that the quality of the appliances and fixtures and cabinets are much better at the Powerhouse. They really are offering higher quality in their units and the price is very similar.
jmcbyr8k - I don't know why you think that LIC is priced similar to Manhattan since most of the condos are between $600/sq ft to $700 sq ft, when Manhattan goes for $1300/sq ft.
Yes, there are many buildings being developed in LIC and perhaps will be more, but that is also a sign of growth for the neighborhood. For living in a construction zone, the construction takes place during the day and stops in the evening, so the noise level would be tolerable. Also, I think LIC would still be more quiet compared to Manhattan given the police and ambulance sirens and garbage trucks that run at every odd hour of the day.
lobo- any idea why the 990 sq ft unit listed on streeteasy (IN CONTRACT according to broker) was priced so much lower ($595k)compared to the remaining 3 units?
It's a lower floor, but also, new develoments release their units in phases. buying early always has its risks but the units that are released later are tend to be released at higher prices. (aside from market downturns -- which we are experiencing)
That is how developers determine the prices for the building.
The rule of thumb used to be $10,000 per floor and they would start by releasing the lower floors first. That's not always how it works but prices increase significantly as later rounds are released.
I have actually had an argument with some about this exact issue (on this board) - when you see price "cuts" on streeteay, it doesn't really mean that the units in that building are being "cut" and that people in conract will be mad, becasue prices of later released units are releaseing at much higher prices than the people who went to contract early. So, as you pointed out, even if the 3 remaining units are cut by $100,000 each, they will still be well above the units in contract.
JimmyT - I am glad to see that someone sees things as they are.
I keep discussing the same thing all over this board. Prices in Manhattan and LIC are not the same.
They take the places at the very top of the LIC market and compare it the average (or slightly below average) in manhattan.
lobo- I disagree with your assessment that the prices between LIC and Manhattan is not fair. I do think it is fair. People are always saying that you can't find a condo in Manhattan for the same price as LIC. That's total BS. I do agree that Manhattan has very, very high prices. However all you have to do is look on this site and you will find hundreds if not thousand at similar price. lobo- I think that yourself and many others have forgotten how high the LIC prices got. Sometimes I think people still believe that you can get a unit in LIC for $400 sq foot. It has everything to do with supply. Higher supply in Manhattan keeps thousands of units with in reach of prices compared to LIC. Another thing that's starting to amaze me is that people are still debating if the NYC housing Market is starting to decrease.
IF ANYONE IS THINKING OF BUYING, DON'T. THE MARKET WILL COME DOWN 20-30 ALL OVER NYC. THIS DOWNTURN TAKES TIME. YOU NEED AT LEAST 1 YEAR FOR ALL THE WALSTREET CUTS TO EVEN HAVE A LASTING IMPACT. CREDIT TIGHTENING WILL ELIMINATE THOUSANDS OF BUYERS. MOST PEOPLE ON WALLSTREET ARE STILL WAITING FOR THE PINKSLIPS THAT ARE MOST DEFINITLY COMING. BUY NOW AND YOU WILL BE BUYING AT THE HEIGHT OF THE MARKET AND YOU BETTER MAKE DAMN SURE YOUR JOB IS SECURE. FOR EVERY JOB LOST ON WALLSTREET it RESULTS IN 3-5 OTHERS.
DCO - I never said that you can't find something for the same price - but to say that prices are the same is just not true - not on the top end, not on the low end, not the median and not the average.
It's not to say that you can't find a bedroom in Manhattan that is the same price in LIC - but the two areas are not similar in price. And I am not talking about 125th street (although, in fairness,that is Mnahattan)
I also did not disagree that we are not in a great market - I've said it before, I don't agree with 20 -30% but I agree that the market is NOT good.
I have not forgotten how high LIC prices are, but they are not as high as Mnahattan.
also, no one here said that LIC is $400psf - but it is still a lot less than $1,000psf (with the exception of 1 building which hasn't actually gotten those prices yet). And, don't forget, manhattan's average is $1,300psf - LIC floats in the mid 6's for the new condos.
You can argue that it's overpriced, and that's an opinion, but to argue that it's the same an manhattan is jus not accurate.
jmcbyr8 - are you suggesting that if you take all costs that Mnahattan is comprable in price to LIC. show me what numbers you are talking about and then we can talk.
first of all, comparing all of manhattan is not fair - it is a much larger area (well...then the Hunter's point area of LIC which is what I think that we are really talking about).
So, let compare that to Murray Hill or The Upper East Side (not far east and above 90th, becaause then you begin to argue if the area is even more desireable anymore).
Now, looking just at that - you can find a 1 bedroom in a walk-up for $1,000psf in Murray hill. You can have a huge condo with doorman overlooking manhattan for that amount in LIC.
and that is if you actually search - otherwise, prices (on average, median, high, low) not matter how you look at it are higher in manhattan.
Let's stop arguing price. If in your opinion you don't like the area, that's fine. But you can't say that the prices are the same. And even if you could, comparing all of Manhattan to LIC is not a good comparison. I don't want to live on 125 street - I would pay more to live in LIC than in Harlem - that's an opinion -- LIC is less PSF than manhattan, that's a fact.
jmcbyr8 and dco - I don't understand why you both keep on insisting that the prices are the same in Manhattan and LIC. You are not comparing the same apt in a desirable location then. Also, are you even comparing condo to condo or perhaps co-op in Manhattan vs. condo in LIC...you should really be more clear in your assessment. And when I compare all costs for the same desirable location and building, yes, LIC is DEFINITELY CHEAPER than Manhattan. Instead of just saying that the prices are the same, give me an example of 2 buildings with the same prices.
I can tell you that a new development in Manhattan (whether upper east, west or downtown will start around $1250-$1300/sq ft and up for a 1 bed. Now a similar unit in LIC is in the mid $600-$700/sq ft range.
And if anyone wants to talk about the $1000/sq ft in LIC, which I assume is the Rockrose building, they haven't even started sales yet, so why even bother mentioning it until they open sales and see what they really list for? A good development in LIC (QueensWest area) is averaging $600-$700sq ft vs a Manhattan condo of $1300/sq ft.
If either of you can find a condo in Manhattan for the same price as LIC, please let me know...because I'm sure that I, along with many others will jump at the opportunity to buy it!
gt9971a- I will refrain from comment for fear of reprisal from the "crew" . I would advise you to ask LICComment for some insight. I'm known in some circles as being to negative on LIC. Good Luck.
gt9971a-
PowerHouse Condominium
Up to PowerHouse
The Powerhouse building is build on the old Penn Station powerhouse and the Schwarts Chemical factory in Long Island City, New York.
PowerHouse Rendering
Building B/C51st Sreet & 2nd Ave
400 luxury condos
Designed by Karl Fischer
CGS Developers of Brooklyn
Apts 1,100 ft or so going for $550 -> $700K
Under Construction 2005 to late 2007- This project is a joke. Started in 2005 and still not close to being done. And that was suppose to be for 400 units. The current plans for the building are for just 177 and they still can't get it done. Most of the sale occured in 2007 with still less then 50% of the units sold. The garage is still 1-2 years from completion. There was a rumor that the builders ran in to financial trouble. Not moving enough units in a timely manner is the fastest way to get cut off by the bank. Sorry guys I gave everyone a chance and the guy was asking for info. Goog luck.
dco - so much for your word of refraining from comment. You couldn't help but open your mouth to prove how foolish you are. Do you have anything to add other than misinformation and dumb rumors?
gt, an older thread on this site and a thread on queenswest.com have a lot of information on the Powerhouse. You should probably look at those for more information. My opinion on Powerhouse is that it may be great for you depending on your tastes. It has a cool, Andres Escobar styling and high quality finishes. I personally thought the mid-range units were priced a bit high given the layouts and the fact that you are not really getting any Manhattan views from most units in this building. The high end units with big terraces or big circular living rooms may be worth the price. The building has taken some extra time to complete because the developer has retained the exterior walls of the powerplant which extended the time to build. If you really like the styling and amenities and the layouts work for you, it may be worth it. There are lots of great new buildings going up in the area so you should check a few and compare to see what is right for you.
gt-Everything that LICComment stated above is 100% correct. Everything he says is fact and if you agree with him you will also be 100% correct. If you want the truth I would suggest you do the research yourself. When your done, post and let us know how it went.
gt9971a: "Does anyone know if the PH has started closing? They had claimed first wave of closings in June"
I was at the Citylights (which is just north of the PH) Bldg last Tues night and unless everyone was fast asleep at 9pm and had turned off their lights, I think no one has moved in yet, so not sure about closings there. I was also told by friends who live in the Citylights, that the PH is far from being complete. Same story about 5SL - bldg was pitch dark with the exception of lights in one unit.
Perhaps too many early sleepers in LIC mate. Though, there was some activity on Vernon Blvd - small number of restaurants which seemed to draw a sizeable crowd. This place is developing albeit slowly.
Ok...I timed it...dco was able to curb his trap for about 4 hours. Let's challenge him to break a new record! Please quit over dramatizing everything...you leave out so many vital information when you post your comments that you end up painting a false picture.
Anyways, back to the facts. The Powerhouse was orignially supposed to close starting July of 2008 (as written in their offering plan), however, they have now pushed this back to October, but who knows for sure until you really see lights in there. The building is closed up and the walls for each unit are up, which would lead me to believe also that the electric wiring and plumbing are also in. Let's see how they progress.
dco, you need to work harder if you want to reach the same level of annoyance as stevejhx. According to my calculations, you need to post at 10x the rate you are posting now.
jsmith9005- Just busting chops. LOL. I truly believe that the market S$%ks, however mostly I like to get people going. Everyone seems to be so serious. I guess if you have a lot of money at stake things can get a little nerving. Why go out to Sea in a storm when you can watch it out the window from the local tavern.
I was in there this spring and asked if I bought (2BR/2BA) they would let me close in January 2010. They laughed and said the whole building would be sold and everything closed by then. I think their tune has changed.
Question...if powerhouse wanted to jumpstart sales, what type of reductions do you see? I have visited most of the LIC developments, and none of them seem to be willing to negotiate on price. I would serious take the plunge if they were willing to drop 10% off the asking for somewhere in the 650 to 750 sq ft. price range (obviously depending on view).
have you asked? worst they can say is no. i got them to take 6% of list, and half the transfer tax.. about 8% all in, and this was back in Jan. u can probably get more in your price range, which is closer to the topend for powerhouse.
JT- I posted this on another topic I think it may prove to be helpful in understanding why new developments are very reluctant in lowering prices and in some cases can't until all pending contracts close. I hope this helps.
Inventory is building daily. The true inventory is about 4X the amount listed. Most of those developments are less then 50% sold with the exception of 5sl, which sold most units over the last 2 years. In fact they still have units they can't unload.
Most developments are artificially withholding inventory, to make it appear lower. These developers are going, to take a beating, by keeping prices at these levels. What's unique is that LIC is mostly new developments. This causes a problem. As prices fall in Manhattan (mostly existing units) it decreases the spread between Manhattan and LIC. The main reason for moving to a transitional area is that you get more for the money, however as prices drop in Manhattan it looks like less of a good deal. So LIC's new developments will need to adjust and adjust fast or they will appear to look desperate in the coming months (waiting will cause larger price drop). The problem is that they just can't reduce the prices 10,15 or 20% to reflect the market, mainly because contracts pending would run the risk of collapse. Either buyer will pullout or the bank appraisals wouldn't support the mortgage request. It's a tough spot. It's clear that I would wait for dramatic reductions in LIC. Also this applies to all of NYC when it comes to new developments. They all suffer from the same problem when it comes to lowering prices.
dco, when are you going to stop telling your lies? Is 10-63 under 50% sold? 10-50 Jackson? Hunters Point condos? Badge? Caza Viscaya? Arris? All are over 50% sold. I'm now sure about Foundry but that is right at the 50% level too.
LICComment- Almost all of those units were sold in or entered contract in 2007. Hunters Point Condos doesn't even list units sold. I guess you are going off what their sales office is saying. The foundry is still below the 50% mark as well. Also 2007 account for the vast majority of contracts. The Powerhouse is less then 50%. EC3, La haus, haven't even begun to sales and the Star just started. All of which have not hit the inventory numbers. Neither has Hunter Points Condos, 60% of the Foundry, 60% of the Powerhouse. The inventory is piling up and some of the new condos like Arris and 5SL have re-sales listed. It's you that is fooling yourself about LIC being worth $800 sq ft. LIC at $500 sq ft. and not a penny more.
dco, do you even realize how silly you sound with all your babbling? L Haus and Star? They have just barely opened their sales offices. How do you know Foundry isn't at 50%? Streeteasy doesn't have all up-to-date information. Like I've said before, if you think luxury condos near waterfront property with skyline views, with a 5 minute subway ride to midtown, at 60% of comparable Manhattan prices is a bad deal, then you have a lot to learn.
LICComment- I was referring to EC3 and Star in regards to them not yet counted in the inventory numbers. They are fairly large buildings and will add 300+ units. Of course like I said before the developers artificially with hold inventory. So it may just show up as 15 units, if that at a time. However, in reality the numbers are much higher. And that goes for all new developments in LIC and throughout the city.
60% comparable, now who's exaggerating. Everyday as prices drop in Manhattan so goes the spread.
In contract does not equal sold. Did it close? No? It hasn't sold yet. In contract is just that. Of course I would expect no less from people trying to distort facts from reality. It is just like the brokers who tell the gullible "well this is the last unit in that line, so you better snatch it up quick". Of course they don't tell you about the units they haven't released yet, and why would they? Honesty? HA!
LICC- both. i think p/h is a good building, but it got caught up in the economic downdraft, and a crabby sales team certainly doesnt help.. the economy aside, i was ambivalent about buying in jan due to uncertainty about where our jobs would take us 3-5yrs down the line.. in hindsight, it was absolutely the right decision. i think p/h is probably a good place to buy if you have a 5+ yr horizon. though theres so much new devs coming online in LIC that you can probably wait for prices to come down a bit more.
cb81- Not that you need anybodies approval, however I think you made a very wise decision. Keep your eye on the area. Prices will fall drastically in the next 12-18 months. When it's to your comfort level re-asses your position. And you are 100% correct about the inventory being very high for the area, it's just hidden by the Marketing Machine. You actually may have just paid for your child's ( if you have any or future child's )college by saving $200,000. Good Luck and congrats on a wise decision.
dco, no one listens to you. If they did it would cost them money. In 18 months prices in LIC will be in the same range they are now or higher. You can't seem to understand that LIC is a newly developed area. The more buildings that come in, the more amenities and retail will come in, and the area will become even more desirable.
TheFed- "In contract does not equal sold. Did it close? No? It hasn't sold yet. In contract is just that" Thank YOU. I have been trying to tell people this for sometime. It's just another way of keeping inventory numbers artificially low. Take the Powerhouse it shows 54 listing in contract and LICComments interprets this as sold units. It couldn't be any further from the truth, especially well over 90% were entered in to contract before the tightening credit crisis.
The truth is that some of these people will no longer qualify for a mortgage today. They will need to come up with a significantly more amount of money then they originally thought when they signed the contract. I know this is difficult for people to understand, however it's not that complicated. Many of these new development deal, throughout the city, are at risk. Standards have changed and it will catch a lot of people off guard. The 5% you thought was enough is now going to require 20-25% minimum. It's just another example of the Marketing Machine playing with numbers.
More made up nonsense from dco. So tell me dco, which new developments allowed 95% mortgage. Which ones didn't require a minimum 10% when signing the contract? Which ones aren't working closely with the mortgage providers to ensure good buyers? You have no clue, as usual.
Of course In Contract does not mean sold with new developments. You can't close on a unit in a new development until the unit is ready for moving in and has its TCO. This is another meaningless point.
oh dco - your empty and misleading comments are really tiresome...do you really think that you have to explain to people that in contract means it's not sold yet? Let me amuse you a little....
Oh...dco...I didn't realize that! I thought all apartments (co-ops, condos, condops, and new developments) meant that they were sold when the listing said "In Contract". It's not sold? Do you mean that when I sign my contract with a seller to buy, it's not mine yet? I'm surprised...I thought when I handed over my 10% and signed the contract, I can move it the next day!
Please dco - stop the insanity! THINK...how are people going to close on a new development when it's not finished? How would the bank appriase the property when the walls are missing and the toilet is missing? LOL...your comments do amuse me though....thanks for the morning giggle.
belugaw -"How would the bank appriase the property when the walls are missing and the toilet is missing? LOL...your comments do amuse me though....thanks for the morning giggle".
How do expect an appraisser to give you a mortgage for a unit that has decreased in value by 20%?
LICComment- Ok, liets assume that it was 10%. Now what. Are telling me that the norm was not 5 or 10% down in the last few years. Now your just talking nonsense.
oh dco - you speak about hypotheticals...and if I were to entertain your hypothetical thinking, then you're correct, the bank will not give a mortgage for a property that has decreased in value by more than 20%. However, has it? Will it? Maybe, but maybe not...so let's just keep the talk to facts shall we? If doomsday appear, I will gladly meet you in hell.
dco also thinks he has uncovered some major secret that new developments release units in batches. Let me fill you in dco - there is no confidential file held by the developer regarding the number of units in a building. Just look at any of the websites and most will tell you how many units will be in any particular building. Releasing units in phases is a way to efficiently sell and gauge pricing, it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information. But keep being paranoid, it suits you.
"it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information"
If you don't think, that developers meet and discuss strategies on the best ways to sell their products you're very naive. It's basic economics of supply and demand, by keeping inventory numbers low, it gives the impression that supply is limited. I guess OPEC's success lies in the fact that they operate independently. Guys it's a well throughout approach that requires vast amount of money to Market these new developments and transitional areas.
The NYC Real Estate Marketing Machine is very effective in keeping people in the dark and manipulating the market. They get paid millions for their work and they are very good.
I'm not claiming that I have discovered where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, when speaking of developers releasing units in stages, however most people don't realize when looking at an indicator such as inventory, that it's an artificially low number.
If a Building like The Powerhouse has 177 total units. It shows only 13 for sale and 50 sold.
What is the actual inventory number for that building? Well according to inventory numbers on the market it's only 13. The 50 listed as contract/sold are off the market. And the remaining 114 don't exist for purpose of tracking inventory data. It's actually funny, it reminds me of the way new developments calculate square footage. Can you believe they get away with counting a % of common area as square footage. The stairs, gym and other amenities space counts when calculating your units square footage. You have to love the RE Marketing Machine.
DCO - square footage on a new condo is measured half way from the outer walls of the building to the outside of the inner walls (in your unit). They do not account for the walls within your apartment. I agree that this is already "creative" measurement but they do not account for stairs or common space, unless you know somethign that i don't -- that is actually standard for NY condo measurments, not just new developments. The reason that they get away with it is becasue in a condo you own the space whereas in a coop you own a share - so you do technically own all of that square footage.
lobo- I know about the walls, however I'm pretty sure they count common areas. Perhaps their is someone more knowledgeable. Just look at some of the plans that list the size of the units. Every single one that I have ever added up, never reflects the stated figure. The answer I was given was that they count common areas.
"it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information"
If you don't think, that developers meet and discuss strategies on the best ways to sell their products you're very naive. It's basic economics of supply and demand, by keeping inventory numbers low, it gives the impression that supply is limited. I guess OPEC's success lies in the fact that they operate independently. Guys it's a well throughout approach that requires vast amount of money to Market these new developments and transitional areas.
The NYC Real Estate Marketing Machine is very effective in keeping people in the dark and manipulating the market. They get paid millions for their work and they are very good.
I'm not claiming that I have discovered where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, when speaking of developers releasing units in stages, however most people don't realize when looking at an indicator such as inventory, that it's an artificially low number.
If a Building like The Powerhouse has 177 total units. It shows only 13 for sale and 50 sold.
What is the actual inventory number for that building? Well according to inventory numbers on the market it's only 13. The 50 listed as contract/sold are off the market. And the remaining 114 don't exist for purpose of tracking inventory data. It's actually funny, it reminds me of the way new developments calculate square footage. Can you believe they get away with counting a % of common area as square footage. The stairs, gym and other amenities space counts when calculating your units square footage. You have to love the RE Marketing Machine.
powerhouse LIC ANY THOUGHTS
anythoughts on powerhouse lic? overpriced?
The whole place is way overpriced. Lic is a developing are with no stores. The most advertised thing about the area is it's proximity to Manhattan. And that's good because you are going to have to go there every time you need to go to the store. Don't waist your time. And the powerhouse is going to have building built right in front of it. The whole place will be one big construction zone for the nest 5 years.
I think that LIC is a great area.
Powerhouse, I agree with DCO on though - it has been probelm filed from the get-go and it's not secret that the waterfront on the other side of the street has plans to be developed with more high-rises.
plenty of nice buildings in the area though. I don't know what your budget is but the Badge Building has very reasonable prices and is a good building - ready to move-in and only 3 units left.
lic is close in proximity to manhattan as dco pointed out, however does anyone have any thoughts on why lics sales prices are similar to manhattan?
DCO - There is an Amish Market going into LIC this May and it will be a very nice sized market as well. There is also a Duane Reade going in this year. I think that LIC has taken a very long time to develop, but the development is well underway for the neighborhood.
As for the Powerhouse, the building should be very nice once finished and it is priced reasonable for the neighorhood and market at around $600 - $700/sq ft range for most of the units. I have looked at the 5SL by Toll Bros in LIC and must honestly say that the quality of the appliances and fixtures and cabinets are much better at the Powerhouse. They really are offering higher quality in their units and the price is very similar.
jmcbyr8k - I don't know why you think that LIC is priced similar to Manhattan since most of the condos are between $600/sq ft to $700 sq ft, when Manhattan goes for $1300/sq ft.
Yes, there are many buildings being developed in LIC and perhaps will be more, but that is also a sign of growth for the neighborhood. For living in a construction zone, the construction takes place during the day and stops in the evening, so the noise level would be tolerable. Also, I think LIC would still be more quiet compared to Manhattan given the police and ambulance sirens and garbage trucks that run at every odd hour of the day.
lobo- any idea why the 990 sq ft unit listed on streeteasy (IN CONTRACT according to broker) was priced so much lower ($595k)compared to the remaining 3 units?
NYCnewbie - I believe that is a 1st floor apartment.
It's a lower floor, but also, new develoments release their units in phases. buying early always has its risks but the units that are released later are tend to be released at higher prices. (aside from market downturns -- which we are experiencing)
That is how developers determine the prices for the building.
The rule of thumb used to be $10,000 per floor and they would start by releasing the lower floors first. That's not always how it works but prices increase significantly as later rounds are released.
I have actually had an argument with some about this exact issue (on this board) - when you see price "cuts" on streeteay, it doesn't really mean that the units in that building are being "cut" and that people in conract will be mad, becasue prices of later released units are releaseing at much higher prices than the people who went to contract early. So, as you pointed out, even if the 3 remaining units are cut by $100,000 each, they will still be well above the units in contract.
JimmyT - I am glad to see that someone sees things as they are.
I keep discussing the same thing all over this board. Prices in Manhattan and LIC are not the same.
They take the places at the very top of the LIC market and compare it the average (or slightly below average) in manhattan.
lobo- I disagree with your assessment that the prices between LIC and Manhattan is not fair. I do think it is fair. People are always saying that you can't find a condo in Manhattan for the same price as LIC. That's total BS. I do agree that Manhattan has very, very high prices. However all you have to do is look on this site and you will find hundreds if not thousand at similar price. lobo- I think that yourself and many others have forgotten how high the LIC prices got. Sometimes I think people still believe that you can get a unit in LIC for $400 sq foot. It has everything to do with supply. Higher supply in Manhattan keeps thousands of units with in reach of prices compared to LIC. Another thing that's starting to amaze me is that people are still debating if the NYC housing Market is starting to decrease.
IF ANYONE IS THINKING OF BUYING, DON'T. THE MARKET WILL COME DOWN 20-30 ALL OVER NYC. THIS DOWNTURN TAKES TIME. YOU NEED AT LEAST 1 YEAR FOR ALL THE WALSTREET CUTS TO EVEN HAVE A LASTING IMPACT. CREDIT TIGHTENING WILL ELIMINATE THOUSANDS OF BUYERS. MOST PEOPLE ON WALLSTREET ARE STILL WAITING FOR THE PINKSLIPS THAT ARE MOST DEFINITLY COMING. BUY NOW AND YOU WILL BE BUYING AT THE HEIGHT OF THE MARKET AND YOU BETTER MAKE DAMN SURE YOUR JOB IS SECURE. FOR EVERY JOB LOST ON WALLSTREET it RESULTS IN 3-5 OTHERS.
DCO - I never said that you can't find something for the same price - but to say that prices are the same is just not true - not on the top end, not on the low end, not the median and not the average.
It's not to say that you can't find a bedroom in Manhattan that is the same price in LIC - but the two areas are not similar in price. And I am not talking about 125th street (although, in fairness,that is Mnahattan)
I also did not disagree that we are not in a great market - I've said it before, I don't agree with 20 -30% but I agree that the market is NOT good.
I have not forgotten how high LIC prices are, but they are not as high as Mnahattan.
also, no one here said that LIC is $400psf - but it is still a lot less than $1,000psf (with the exception of 1 building which hasn't actually gotten those prices yet). And, don't forget, manhattan's average is $1,300psf - LIC floats in the mid 6's for the new condos.
You can argue that it's overpriced, and that's an opinion, but to argue that it's the same an manhattan is jus not accurate.
belgaw, if you compare all costs, you will better understand the correlation.
jmcbyr8 - are you suggesting that if you take all costs that Mnahattan is comprable in price to LIC. show me what numbers you are talking about and then we can talk.
first of all, comparing all of manhattan is not fair - it is a much larger area (well...then the Hunter's point area of LIC which is what I think that we are really talking about).
So, let compare that to Murray Hill or The Upper East Side (not far east and above 90th, becaause then you begin to argue if the area is even more desireable anymore).
Now, looking just at that - you can find a 1 bedroom in a walk-up for $1,000psf in Murray hill. You can have a huge condo with doorman overlooking manhattan for that amount in LIC.
and that is if you actually search - otherwise, prices (on average, median, high, low) not matter how you look at it are higher in manhattan.
Let's stop arguing price. If in your opinion you don't like the area, that's fine. But you can't say that the prices are the same. And even if you could, comparing all of Manhattan to LIC is not a good comparison. I don't want to live on 125 street - I would pay more to live in LIC than in Harlem - that's an opinion -- LIC is less PSF than manhattan, that's a fact.
jmcbyr8 and dco - I don't understand why you both keep on insisting that the prices are the same in Manhattan and LIC. You are not comparing the same apt in a desirable location then. Also, are you even comparing condo to condo or perhaps co-op in Manhattan vs. condo in LIC...you should really be more clear in your assessment. And when I compare all costs for the same desirable location and building, yes, LIC is DEFINITELY CHEAPER than Manhattan. Instead of just saying that the prices are the same, give me an example of 2 buildings with the same prices.
I can tell you that a new development in Manhattan (whether upper east, west or downtown will start around $1250-$1300/sq ft and up for a 1 bed. Now a similar unit in LIC is in the mid $600-$700/sq ft range.
And if anyone wants to talk about the $1000/sq ft in LIC, which I assume is the Rockrose building, they haven't even started sales yet, so why even bother mentioning it until they open sales and see what they really list for? A good development in LIC (QueensWest area) is averaging $600-$700sq ft vs a Manhattan condo of $1300/sq ft.
If either of you can find a condo in Manhattan for the same price as LIC, please let me know...because I'm sure that I, along with many others will jump at the opportunity to buy it!
Does anyone know if the PH has started closing? They had claimed first wave of closings in June.
gt9971a- I will refrain from comment for fear of reprisal from the "crew" . I would advise you to ask LICComment for some insight. I'm known in some circles as being to negative on LIC. Good Luck.
LOL...dco...you make me laugh...let's see how long you can curb your commenting about the doomsday of LIC and all NYC real estate.
belugaw- I'm sorry I don't know what you're talking about.
"Don't waist your time."
classic dco. classic.
JM- Thank You.......
given the pace of sales and construction.. im thinking late fall or early '09 for closings to take place.
JuiceMan, you didn't know? The old adage is time = money, but now it's also true that time can be converted into body fat.
gt9971a-
PowerHouse Condominium
Up to PowerHouse
The Powerhouse building is build on the old Penn Station powerhouse and the Schwarts Chemical factory in Long Island City, New York.
PowerHouse Rendering
Building B/C51st Sreet & 2nd Ave
400 luxury condos
Designed by Karl Fischer
CGS Developers of Brooklyn
Apts 1,100 ft or so going for $550 -> $700K
Under Construction 2005 to late 2007- This project is a joke. Started in 2005 and still not close to being done. And that was suppose to be for 400 units. The current plans for the building are for just 177 and they still can't get it done. Most of the sale occured in 2007 with still less then 50% of the units sold. The garage is still 1-2 years from completion. There was a rumor that the builders ran in to financial trouble. Not moving enough units in a timely manner is the fastest way to get cut off by the bank. Sorry guys I gave everyone a chance and the guy was asking for info. Goog luck.
dco - so much for your word of refraining from comment. You couldn't help but open your mouth to prove how foolish you are. Do you have anything to add other than misinformation and dumb rumors?
gt, an older thread on this site and a thread on queenswest.com have a lot of information on the Powerhouse. You should probably look at those for more information. My opinion on Powerhouse is that it may be great for you depending on your tastes. It has a cool, Andres Escobar styling and high quality finishes. I personally thought the mid-range units were priced a bit high given the layouts and the fact that you are not really getting any Manhattan views from most units in this building. The high end units with big terraces or big circular living rooms may be worth the price. The building has taken some extra time to complete because the developer has retained the exterior walls of the powerplant which extended the time to build. If you really like the styling and amenities and the layouts work for you, it may be worth it. There are lots of great new buildings going up in the area so you should check a few and compare to see what is right for you.
gt-Everything that LICComment stated above is 100% correct. Everything he says is fact and if you agree with him you will also be 100% correct. If you want the truth I would suggest you do the research yourself. When your done, post and let us know how it went.
gt9971a: "Does anyone know if the PH has started closing? They had claimed first wave of closings in June"
I was at the Citylights (which is just north of the PH) Bldg last Tues night and unless everyone was fast asleep at 9pm and had turned off their lights, I think no one has moved in yet, so not sure about closings there. I was also told by friends who live in the Citylights, that the PH is far from being complete. Same story about 5SL - bldg was pitch dark with the exception of lights in one unit.
Perhaps too many early sleepers in LIC mate. Though, there was some activity on Vernon Blvd - small number of restaurants which seemed to draw a sizeable crowd. This place is developing albeit slowly.
cheers,
Ok...I timed it...dco was able to curb his trap for about 4 hours. Let's challenge him to break a new record! Please quit over dramatizing everything...you leave out so many vital information when you post your comments that you end up painting a false picture.
Anyways, back to the facts. The Powerhouse was orignially supposed to close starting July of 2008 (as written in their offering plan), however, they have now pushed this back to October, but who knows for sure until you really see lights in there. The building is closed up and the walls for each unit are up, which would lead me to believe also that the electric wiring and plumbing are also in. Let's see how they progress.
dco, you need to work harder if you want to reach the same level of annoyance as stevejhx. According to my calculations, you need to post at 10x the rate you are posting now.
jsmith9005- Just busting chops. LOL. I truly believe that the market S$%ks, however mostly I like to get people going. Everyone seems to be so serious. I guess if you have a lot of money at stake things can get a little nerving. Why go out to Sea in a storm when you can watch it out the window from the local tavern.
I was in there this spring and asked if I bought (2BR/2BA) they would let me close in January 2010. They laughed and said the whole building would be sold and everything closed by then. I think their tune has changed.
Question...if powerhouse wanted to jumpstart sales, what type of reductions do you see? I have visited most of the LIC developments, and none of them seem to be willing to negotiate on price. I would serious take the plunge if they were willing to drop 10% off the asking for somewhere in the 650 to 750 sq ft. price range (obviously depending on view).
have you asked? worst they can say is no. i got them to take 6% of list, and half the transfer tax.. about 8% all in, and this was back in Jan. u can probably get more in your price range, which is closer to the topend for powerhouse.
i ended up not buying, btw.
JT- I posted this on another topic I think it may prove to be helpful in understanding why new developments are very reluctant in lowering prices and in some cases can't until all pending contracts close. I hope this helps.
Inventory is building daily. The true inventory is about 4X the amount listed. Most of those developments are less then 50% sold with the exception of 5sl, which sold most units over the last 2 years. In fact they still have units they can't unload.
Most developments are artificially withholding inventory, to make it appear lower. These developers are going, to take a beating, by keeping prices at these levels. What's unique is that LIC is mostly new developments. This causes a problem. As prices fall in Manhattan (mostly existing units) it decreases the spread between Manhattan and LIC. The main reason for moving to a transitional area is that you get more for the money, however as prices drop in Manhattan it looks like less of a good deal. So LIC's new developments will need to adjust and adjust fast or they will appear to look desperate in the coming months (waiting will cause larger price drop). The problem is that they just can't reduce the prices 10,15 or 20% to reflect the market, mainly because contracts pending would run the risk of collapse. Either buyer will pullout or the bank appraisals wouldn't support the mortgage request. It's a tough spot. It's clear that I would wait for dramatic reductions in LIC. Also this applies to all of NYC when it comes to new developments. They all suffer from the same problem when it comes to lowering prices.
cb, did you look at another building or did you decide not to buy at all?
dco, when are you going to stop telling your lies? Is 10-63 under 50% sold? 10-50 Jackson? Hunters Point condos? Badge? Caza Viscaya? Arris? All are over 50% sold. I'm now sure about Foundry but that is right at the 50% level too.
LICComment- Almost all of those units were sold in or entered contract in 2007. Hunters Point Condos doesn't even list units sold. I guess you are going off what their sales office is saying. The foundry is still below the 50% mark as well. Also 2007 account for the vast majority of contracts. The Powerhouse is less then 50%. EC3, La haus, haven't even begun to sales and the Star just started. All of which have not hit the inventory numbers. Neither has Hunter Points Condos, 60% of the Foundry, 60% of the Powerhouse. The inventory is piling up and some of the new condos like Arris and 5SL have re-sales listed. It's you that is fooling yourself about LIC being worth $800 sq ft. LIC at $500 sq ft. and not a penny more.
dco, do you even realize how silly you sound with all your babbling? L Haus and Star? They have just barely opened their sales offices. How do you know Foundry isn't at 50%? Streeteasy doesn't have all up-to-date information. Like I've said before, if you think luxury condos near waterfront property with skyline views, with a 5 minute subway ride to midtown, at 60% of comparable Manhattan prices is a bad deal, then you have a lot to learn.
LICComment- I was referring to EC3 and Star in regards to them not yet counted in the inventory numbers. They are fairly large buildings and will add 300+ units. Of course like I said before the developers artificially with hold inventory. So it may just show up as 15 units, if that at a time. However, in reality the numbers are much higher. And that goes for all new developments in LIC and throughout the city.
60% comparable, now who's exaggerating. Everyday as prices drop in Manhattan so goes the spread.
In contract does not equal sold. Did it close? No? It hasn't sold yet. In contract is just that. Of course I would expect no less from people trying to distort facts from reality. It is just like the brokers who tell the gullible "well this is the last unit in that line, so you better snatch it up quick". Of course they don't tell you about the units they haven't released yet, and why would they? Honesty? HA!
LICC- both. i think p/h is a good building, but it got caught up in the economic downdraft, and a crabby sales team certainly doesnt help.. the economy aside, i was ambivalent about buying in jan due to uncertainty about where our jobs would take us 3-5yrs down the line.. in hindsight, it was absolutely the right decision. i think p/h is probably a good place to buy if you have a 5+ yr horizon. though theres so much new devs coming online in LIC that you can probably wait for prices to come down a bit more.
cb81- Not that you need anybodies approval, however I think you made a very wise decision. Keep your eye on the area. Prices will fall drastically in the next 12-18 months. When it's to your comfort level re-asses your position. And you are 100% correct about the inventory being very high for the area, it's just hidden by the Marketing Machine. You actually may have just paid for your child's ( if you have any or future child's )college by saving $200,000. Good Luck and congrats on a wise decision.
dco, no one listens to you. If they did it would cost them money. In 18 months prices in LIC will be in the same range they are now or higher. You can't seem to understand that LIC is a newly developed area. The more buildings that come in, the more amenities and retail will come in, and the area will become even more desirable.
TheFed- "In contract does not equal sold. Did it close? No? It hasn't sold yet. In contract is just that" Thank YOU. I have been trying to tell people this for sometime. It's just another way of keeping inventory numbers artificially low. Take the Powerhouse it shows 54 listing in contract and LICComments interprets this as sold units. It couldn't be any further from the truth, especially well over 90% were entered in to contract before the tightening credit crisis.
The truth is that some of these people will no longer qualify for a mortgage today. They will need to come up with a significantly more amount of money then they originally thought when they signed the contract. I know this is difficult for people to understand, however it's not that complicated. Many of these new development deal, throughout the city, are at risk. Standards have changed and it will catch a lot of people off guard. The 5% you thought was enough is now going to require 20-25% minimum. It's just another example of the Marketing Machine playing with numbers.
More made up nonsense from dco. So tell me dco, which new developments allowed 95% mortgage. Which ones didn't require a minimum 10% when signing the contract? Which ones aren't working closely with the mortgage providers to ensure good buyers? You have no clue, as usual.
Of course In Contract does not mean sold with new developments. You can't close on a unit in a new development until the unit is ready for moving in and has its TCO. This is another meaningless point.
oh dco - your empty and misleading comments are really tiresome...do you really think that you have to explain to people that in contract means it's not sold yet? Let me amuse you a little....
Oh...dco...I didn't realize that! I thought all apartments (co-ops, condos, condops, and new developments) meant that they were sold when the listing said "In Contract". It's not sold? Do you mean that when I sign my contract with a seller to buy, it's not mine yet? I'm surprised...I thought when I handed over my 10% and signed the contract, I can move it the next day!
Please dco - stop the insanity! THINK...how are people going to close on a new development when it's not finished? How would the bank appriase the property when the walls are missing and the toilet is missing? LOL...your comments do amuse me though....thanks for the morning giggle.
belugaw -"How would the bank appriase the property when the walls are missing and the toilet is missing? LOL...your comments do amuse me though....thanks for the morning giggle".
How do expect an appraisser to give you a mortgage for a unit that has decreased in value by 20%?
LICComment- Ok, liets assume that it was 10%. Now what. Are telling me that the norm was not 5 or 10% down in the last few years. Now your just talking nonsense.
oh dco - you speak about hypotheticals...and if I were to entertain your hypothetical thinking, then you're correct, the bank will not give a mortgage for a property that has decreased in value by more than 20%. However, has it? Will it? Maybe, but maybe not...so let's just keep the talk to facts shall we? If doomsday appear, I will gladly meet you in hell.
dco also thinks he has uncovered some major secret that new developments release units in batches. Let me fill you in dco - there is no confidential file held by the developer regarding the number of units in a building. Just look at any of the websites and most will tell you how many units will be in any particular building. Releasing units in phases is a way to efficiently sell and gauge pricing, it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information. But keep being paranoid, it suits you.
LICComment-
"it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information"
If you don't think, that developers meet and discuss strategies on the best ways to sell their products you're very naive. It's basic economics of supply and demand, by keeping inventory numbers low, it gives the impression that supply is limited. I guess OPEC's success lies in the fact that they operate independently. Guys it's a well throughout approach that requires vast amount of money to Market these new developments and transitional areas.
The NYC Real Estate Marketing Machine is very effective in keeping people in the dark and manipulating the market. They get paid millions for their work and they are very good.
I'm not claiming that I have discovered where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, when speaking of developers releasing units in stages, however most people don't realize when looking at an indicator such as inventory, that it's an artificially low number.
If a Building like The Powerhouse has 177 total units. It shows only 13 for sale and 50 sold.
What is the actual inventory number for that building? Well according to inventory numbers on the market it's only 13. The 50 listed as contract/sold are off the market. And the remaining 114 don't exist for purpose of tracking inventory data. It's actually funny, it reminds me of the way new developments calculate square footage. Can you believe they get away with counting a % of common area as square footage. The stairs, gym and other amenities space counts when calculating your units square footage. You have to love the RE Marketing Machine.
DCO - square footage on a new condo is measured half way from the outer walls of the building to the outside of the inner walls (in your unit). They do not account for the walls within your apartment. I agree that this is already "creative" measurement but they do not account for stairs or common space, unless you know somethign that i don't -- that is actually standard for NY condo measurments, not just new developments. The reason that they get away with it is becasue in a condo you own the space whereas in a coop you own a share - so you do technically own all of that square footage.
lobo- I know about the walls, however I'm pretty sure they count common areas. Perhaps their is someone more knowledgeable. Just look at some of the plans that list the size of the units. Every single one that I have ever added up, never reflects the stated figure. The answer I was given was that they count common areas.
LICComment-
"it is not some devious technique to manipulate market information"
If you don't think, that developers meet and discuss strategies on the best ways to sell their products you're very naive. It's basic economics of supply and demand, by keeping inventory numbers low, it gives the impression that supply is limited. I guess OPEC's success lies in the fact that they operate independently. Guys it's a well throughout approach that requires vast amount of money to Market these new developments and transitional areas.
The NYC Real Estate Marketing Machine is very effective in keeping people in the dark and manipulating the market. They get paid millions for their work and they are very good.
I'm not claiming that I have discovered where Jimmy Hoffa is buried, when speaking of developers releasing units in stages, however most people don't realize when looking at an indicator such as inventory, that it's an artificially low number.
If a Building like The Powerhouse has 177 total units. It shows only 13 for sale and 50 sold.
What is the actual inventory number for that building? Well according to inventory numbers on the market it's only 13. The 50 listed as contract/sold are off the market. And the remaining 114 don't exist for purpose of tracking inventory data. It's actually funny, it reminds me of the way new developments calculate square footage. Can you believe they get away with counting a % of common area as square footage. The stairs, gym and other amenities space counts when calculating your units square footage. You have to love the RE Marketing Machine.