Sukenik=King of the Price Change

Congrat. On your find. What a joke.

My bet is price decrease to $745,000 by May 21 - followed by price increase to $749,000 on June 1.

I don't know, he might be due for the next $50k decrement by then.

streeteasy ought to have some controls to limit clear abuses like this !

Despite his silly games, the price is essentially unchanged from 11/26/07.

All in all, an over 18% decline in 1-year....AND...the property STILL has not sold, so there may still be may be MORE room to fall.

Not that I know the area very well - but do you think someone might bite at $690K?

Sorry, what is the concern here?

Not a concern as much as amusement.

It's annoying and kind of silly, but I understand why brokers do this - every time they adjust the price, anybody for whom this property is included in their saved search gets an email about the property from Streeteasy.

brikerstunk: Streeteasy is the one entity that details, for some reason, the price changes. Without knowing the story behind the property, it means nothing.

Trying to "game" the system with these meaningless price adjustments (ever since 10/30/07) sends the message to potential buyers that either A) The selling broker is an amateur or B) The selling broker is a tad sleazy or C) The selling broker thinks that buyers are too stupid to notice.

I agree w/ iMom. 20 lines of price adjustments falls somewhere between cheesy and desperate. Having seen all those "Darren Sukenik = SOLD!" posts on Curbed makes it pretty characteristic.

OMG! "Sleezy?" How dare you iMom. VVerain will have something to say about this! Isn't it just "aggressive?"

Aggressively sleazy.

It's Elliman, and on their system it shows up as a new listing every time the price changes. Here, however, they get caught.

And he is sleazy - I know him. ;0

He gets deals done and uses tools to market effectively ... hardly desperate given the volume of his business.

Sleazy is as sleazy does.

To you, vverain, the ends justify the means. At least that's the gist of what you just wrote, n'est pas?

VVerain=Sukenik

Apparently.

AptBoy, you are a genius.
Anyway.
So the ends justify the means ... he changed prices up and down, and then he changed them up and down, and then he changed them up and down again ... oh shit, didn't realize how harmful that was to society and the silly buyers out there who pay hundreds of thousands and millions without thinking when WOWed by these up and down prices. I'm sure you guys were booing the Seinfeld episode when he disclosed that he invented the umbrella twirl to attract attention to sell umbrellas. And probably thought about burning down your local grocery store because they sell 2 liter and 12 pack Coke at different prices each week.

I would never work with a sleazy person like this.

"hardly desperate given the volume of his business."

perhaps he has a vested interest in seeing the place sell....afterall im sure no bigshot broker in town ever overextended himself speculating on crappy condos, because after all, real estate values never decline, not even in that 'hood...

Yes, as a seller's representative, he has a vested interest in seeing the place sell. Regardless of the direction or static state of the market.

Alright dco, you raised the topic, who is it that you do work for?

oh crap ... earthquake kills thousands in China, and Darren Sukenik changes price from $749,000 to $745,000 and back.

Sleazy is as sleazy does.

Because he didn't "change price from $749,000 to $745,000 and back."

He changed from OLD LISTING to NEW LISTING. Completely different.

ahole.

The recency of the listing does not change the fundamentals of the property.

I think this broker's actions are really lame and if I was his client I would be like what the F, but at the end of the day VV is right "the recency of the listing does not change the fundamentals of the property."

The recentness of a listing certainly does change the fundamentals of the PRICE of the property. Otherwise, he wouldn't be doing it. You can't sell a 2007 car as a 2008 car, even if it's new and unused, can you?

It's fraud.

Any honest realtor will warn you about a "stale" listing - one that's more than a few weeks old.

VVerain, you're right, it's not a big deal (and I don't think anyone equated this to an earthquake, but, uh, ok), but when you have the choice between a sleazy broker and a non sleazy one, this kind of bs stands out. One particularly agressive/sleazy broker tried to ply his tricks on me way back when I was first shopping. Those kinds of brokers make the whole process very unpleasant, that's all.

The price is $745K. If the price came down to $745 or went up to $745 or started at $745, it is still $745. Price is very simple.

VVerian - Why are you so interested in defending "Sukenik=King of the Price Change"? You have already made 8 posts to this string. Either you have a vested interest in defending him or have way too much time on your hands...either way, it is just sad.

He's screwing his fellow Elliman brokers, whose legitimately new/amended listings get less attention because the "new listings" page is cluttered with junk. Maybe they should all adopt his tactics, and render the page completely useless.

I believe that this is the same Verain who defended CORE brokers' tactics on another thread (also ad nauseum). As I posted then, he's a troll, since he disclaimed any CORE relationship (and thus removing any "rational" basis for his postings).

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/3332-core-marketing-group

Interesting, so there is only one legitimate point of view for this argument, because even if other side might have something logical (or illogical for that matter) to say, that person is invalidated at the outset before a case could be made based as that person is either vested/conflicted or unvested and therefore sad and a troll by simple virtue of disagreement with the original point of view.

As I said in the other thread, res ipsa loquiter. Interesting that you changed your posting name. Not so easy to change your stripes.

streeteasy posting name change wasn't intended to change any continuity of position (aka stripes) on my part.

He was probably banned as Verain. :0

no, not quite. Despite your efforts.

still, no one has managed to refute: The price is $745K. If the price came down to $745 or went up to $745 or started at $745, it is still $745. Price is very simple.

or: The recency of the listing does not change the fundamentals of the property.

sleazy is as sleazy does.

overpriced = overpriced.

You can't sell a 2007 car as a 2008 just b/c it's been sitting on your lot for a year.

"stale listing."

Caught.

I have made no judgement on the price. It may be overpriced. The price it sells at will be the market price, and so far it hasn't sold at any of the prior listing prices. But even if everyone agrees it is overpriced, including the broker himself, that doesn't equate to the broker or the seller being sleezy.

And he is not selling a car where there are model years. He is selling a piece of real property. Is the year of development of the property relevant? ... sure ... but he isn't changing the year of the property's development. Your example doesn't hold.

Lastly, with respect to this accusation of "stale listing" ... so?

dude two investments, both have expected value of 745 and equal volatility, one clearly has measurement error and the other not, which one would you choose ?

Sleazy = sleazy.

Fraud is defined as:

1 wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
2 a person or thing intended to deceive.

This is clearly deception, and its purpose is to get people to believe that this property hasn't been sitting on the market for ages by claim that it's "new," and its purpose is clearly the personal financial gain of the listing agent.

So not only is the action fraud, so is the person.

You hire a broker to evaluate the market and propose a proper selling price based upon market conditions and recent sales. If a property does not sell, the broker/seller should revisit that price at regular intervals (4/6/8 weeks) and determine if a price change is needed. "Sukenik=King of the Price Change" is not doing that, as such he is not serving his clients honestly. And as a buyer, you have no confidence in the asking price which will either force a buyer to do extra research or more likely ignore the property because of its uncertain price history.

The effect of unsavory broker practice is this: if I am in love with the property, the sleazy or aggressive broker (call it whatever you want) will likely have little impact. If I'm on the fence or mildly interested, these kind of tactics cause me to move on--who needs the headache of dealing with someone like this. Thus, the broker is providing a disservice to his client. Merely attracting attention is not enough. Running around outside the building naked tyring to hand out flyers would attract attention, too, but that doesn't translate into sales.

Much as I would prefer not to, I'm going to have to agree with VVerain here. I don't believe that time on the market is a fundamental aspect of an apartment that a buyer has a right to know. It is an indicator of the demand for that apartment which influences the bargaining power of the respective parties, but it is not comparable to other aspects of an apartment such as location, size, light, views or condition. Nobody expects a seller of any product to fully disclose their bargaining position with respect to the product that they are trying to sell. To use the car example again, if I was selling a used car and a potential buyer asked me how long I have been trying to sell the car, I would be completely comfortable telling the potential buyer that it is none of their business.

I think the real flaw in this approach is that Streeteasy seems to do a pretty good job of allowing a potential buyer to see through the charade and to discover the true age of the listing. When I see an apartment that has been the subject of these kinds of price movements, it makes me think that the seller and broker are desperate to draw interest to the apartment. This would either (a) make me think that there is something wrong with the apartment and avoid it or (b) cause me to make an extreme lowball bid if I was interested. Those are not actions a broker should be trying to evoke in a potential buyer. In short, I don't think these tactics are sleazy, but I do think they are stupid.

When I see a lot of price changes like this, I always use the lowest price to determine what to offer so, yes, it seems this broker is not best serving the client.

re: seeming desperate

The listing appears that way regardless of Sukenik's sales volume. I've known guys who are never longing for company, if you know what I mean, but they still seem desperate and pathetic at a bar hitting on every woman in sight.

stevejhx - I don't want to spend a lot of ink on it - but while the relistings are sleazy - they are not legally fraudulent.

they're borderline, october, under ny's false advertising laws. But they certainly are fraudulent in the sense of wrongful.

stevejhx - the fact that all the prior price points are disclosed means that there has been no deception. The broker is showing you that he is fishing. It's not even close for common law fraud. Please point me to the NY statute covering the false advertising laws and I'll run up to my firm's law library and take a look.

they're shown here, but not on the Elliman website where they come from.

I'll make it easy for you:

"S 349. Deceptive acts and practices unlawful. (a) Deceptive acts or practices in the conduct of any business, trade or commerce or in the furnishing of any service in this state are hereby declared unlawful."

"S 350. False advertising unlawful. False advertising in the conduct of any business, trade or commerce or in the furnishing of any service in this state is hereby declared unlawful."

"S 350-a. False advertising. 1. The term "false advertising" means advertising, including labeling, of a commodity, or of the kind, character, terms or conditions of any employment opportunity if such
advertising is misleading in a material respect. In determining whether any advertising is misleading, there shall be taken into account (among other things) not only representations made by statement, word, design, device, sound or any combination thereof, but also the extent to which the advertising fails to reveal facts material in the light of such representations with respect to the commodity or employment to which the advertising relates under the conditions prescribed in said advertisement, or under such conditions as are customary or usual."

Since he's obviously trying to make the property look like a new listing on his website, that is mislabeling what it actually is.

FWIW, this isn't illegal, in part because no one can detrimentally rely upon this price change info. It doesn't communicate anything false about what is being sold or the price at which it is offered. It's deceptive if people rely upon the Elliman search engine to truly list newer properties first, but that isn't what consumer fraud statutes are there for. Others are right that the price is what it is and that's that. The problem is one of ethics and system gaming and unsavory-ness. A sort of contempt shown for those who play by the rules. But just because it makes Elliman's search engine coughs up the listing as new is hardly a cause for legal action. Let's not get bogged down in this by non-lawyers interpreting the law. It doesn't serve anyone on here.

kylewest - I agree with you completely (except that I'm a lawyer). :-)

remember october, that on average all lawyers lose half their cases, so they must be wrong half the time.

"if such advertising is misleading in a material respect."

To show something as a "new listing" when it is not is "misleading in a material respect," is it not?

"remember october, that on average all lawyers lose half their cases, so they must be wrong half the time."

Sorry, Steve, but that is just dumb. We have an adversarial system in which lawyers are required to zealously represent their clients. So, the fact that a lawyer loses often has much more to do with the client and the case that they have than their understanding of the law.

Even if your assertion that the "average" lawyer was wrong half the time, it wouldn't follow that any given lawyer is wrong half the time. Some lawyers are obviously better and more correct than the average, and there's no reason to think that october isn't one of them.

Sigh - stevejhx: 1. I went to the realtor website - I don't see the term "new listing" - where is the false advertising?; 2. "material" misstatements in this context generally refer to the underlying product - I don't see any misstatement about the apartment itself; and 3. exaggerations in advertisement are perfectly legal - there is even a nice little term for it: "puffery." But please - don't take my word for it - go hire a lawyer!

remember october, that on average guys name stevejhx talk out of two sides of their mouths, so they must be wrong 100% of the time.

Oh, guys, just let me have some fun!

Fair enough - have a good weekend guys.

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Where is Sukenik now?

Just saw his website out of curiosity. Still has lots of listings, some in contract and recent sales. I don't understand the fraud part at all. The listing is not set in stone, it is an asking price. If that were my apartment, I would want the broker to aggressively market my listing as much as possible. You act like it is fraud but that is the biggest stretch imaginable.

Aggressively market? He didn't show up a couple of times when I made appointments to see apartments he was listing. Not impressed.

Sukenik is probably out of a job (like me) and selling something, somewhere.

What's with Sukenik these days?

Sold.