financial district 20 PIne

Definitely superior to 75 Wall.

Why are there so many 20 Pine threads lately? Is there going to be a mad rush by SE posters to buy there soon?

might have something to do with the guy with "20 pine" in his name. Perhaps its a broker there.

you have to be crazy to buy it or at 75 wall.. the 20 Pine building is on the verge of collapse

i would agree that 20 pine is a very risky investment at this point, still many sponsor owned units and a lot of investors bought it, thus constant downward competition in value since everyone is reducing prices to rent or sell in a declining market. The numbers are staggering, I believe there are 62 unrented units at this point, plus a number unsold.

Also--I have been checking this bldg out for some time now, and I have encountered several resales NOT listed here on Streeteasy. This would indicate the availability may even be more extensive.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I've come up with an analogy for 20 Pine: It's like a physically unattractive individual wearing an Armani suit. No matter how well they appoint the surface, the "fundamental" problems with the layout, inefficient conversion of the space, etc. cannot be compensated. As such, the units seemed grossly over-priced, even at the peak of the market.

What do you mean inefficient conversion of the space?

If you visit the bldg/units, you'd know what I mean. Since it is a big square-ish stone structure with small windows, it creates a lot of awkwardly-shaped dark/windowless spaces within and outside of your apt. I think they maximized the "sellable" squarefootage over designing apartments/common spaces that are more "liveable" (see 75 Wall, 90 William, or even the District).

I have spent quite a bit of time lately justifying my impressions of 20 Pine, 75 Wall, Stuy Town, etc...and I wonder whether people have actually seen these bldgs. I feel as though I am stating the obvious, yet people ask me what I mean... Maybe I need to be more explicit in my descriptions...

I agree with 212 here. I've been in the building, and the layouts are awkward.

I don't think its the windows so much (they aren't that small, they're just singles spaced apart), I think it is more the HUGE floorplates. Front doors end up being fairly far from the windows, so even when you cut out bathrooms and such, you still end up with a good chunk of space not near any windows. And the hallways are a little weird, too (a lot of crevices) This is a frequent downtown problem.

They had to do some interest layouts to make it work, and I think that is the problem here.

Yes huge florplates, so you have to work with what you got.

Does anyone know the state of the amenities at 20 Pine such as the pool, gym and spa? We may rent a unit there and I'd like to know if there's any prospect of them actually existing.

Goldie - In November, I heard that they would be done in February.

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/01/09/buildingchopper_half_off_at_20_pine_when_you_buy_80_units.php#more

20 Pine remaining units to be sold in fire sale. I think $652 ps ft. is way too high for a bulk sale in this market. Plus, the building is not even complete.

Today there were 7 cuts in rents at 20 Pine. Lowest rent is now $2,200, down from $2,500. Some of these apts have been on the market since the Summer.

Yeah I notice the same rent cuts today. The brokers should also be a bit smart about it and be explicit that there's not fee. One of the problems itself is the high amount of inventory. The other problem is simply the area. Watch the move American Psycho, that's like the alleyway where the homeless dude was killed by Patrick Bateman.

What exactly is wrong with 20 Pine's location? I'm wondering because I'm looking (from out of state)

If that immediate is considered bad, then where I live right now in LA must be a complete dump.

lol, you are the perfect buyer. Because you have no idea. There's nothing unsafe or unsavory of the area. But go and look at it at 9pm on a weeknight. You won't feel bad, but you won't feel like its a home. THEN, on a weekend, go and get some groceries. Go look for a grocery store. And then, pretend you have a baby, put that baby in a stroller and stroll around. Have fun.

Lany3 we moved to this area from Los Feliz in LA. At first u think it will be fine. However, after 1 winter down there you'll want to kill yourself. The places to eat are not as good there, tourists mob wall street (or did) before it imploded. The area shuts down after the lunch rush. But the main problem we have is the lack of sunlight. The building are tall and very close to one another add this to the cave like apartments and you'll be begging to get out. Trust me one LA mover to another if you can find something in another area take it first. Good luck with your move.

Once again, a couple of FiDi critics who have not really spent time there. There ARE plenty of people there throughout a day/week, with business people, tourists, and the residents. Strangely, many European tourists appear to come to the Stock Exchange at night (jet lag???).

I won't even dignify the comments on supermarkets with a response because it shows Millipod has NEVER been to FiDi. Seriously, how many more supermarkets do you need in your neighborhood? Also, restaurants suck downtown and the places "shut down" after the lunch rush, mhp1, eh? Are you for real? Have you heard of Maiden Lane?

There is nothing wrong w/ 20 Pine's location, lany3. It's just in BAD financial shape, and I personally don't care for the layout of the entire bldg. The location is impeccable, with at least 3 supermarkets in the immediate neighborhood (w/ another to come soon), countless shops, restaurants, with various transportation options. And, yes, there are many people (tourists, residents, and office workers) there at night and over weekends.

I've lived there until recently and I now live in Midtown East in the mid-40s. Honestly, it is MUCH quieter here at night/on weekends than it is in FiDi, and restaurants here are MUCH more limited (some won't even open on weekends).

You are free to HATE financial institutions, Wall Streeters, bankers, etc., but please don't be an idiot and hate the location. FiDi is a perfectly fine residential area.

I won't even dignify the comments on supermarkets with a response because it shows Millipod has NEVER been to FiDi.

Millipod works long hours in the financial district in a building very very very close to 20 Pine.

Assuming you like downtown, I actually think the location of 20P is decent.

Its just a bit off broadway (which is good... you don't want to be ON broadway but near it is good) and its one a huge plaza with 1 chase plaza... Its not a hugely busy through, and its basically smack in the middle of downtown.

I wouldn't want to be any further east (then you're talking south street seaport and further from subway) and the other side of Broadway is ground zero... not good.

Would you want to be more north? Perhaps, but then you're more city hall. The downtown "stuff" is actually just south of there.

20 pine is in the middle of downtown... so I don't think there is any problem with it assuming you want the neighborhood.

I'm not sure how you say there aren't grocery stores. There is Jubilee (which is open 24 hours), Zaytuna (which has nice specialty foods), and gristedees. Also, Whole Foods is a 10 minute walk.

I'm not saying FiDi is for everybody - it certainly isn't. Advantages include: Few or no drunk college kids walking around at night; it's fairly quite (I personally like that - when I come home at night, I don't need hundreds of people outside my door at the local pub); close to great neighborhoods (I may not want to live in Chelsea due to the noise, but I do like be a short cab ride away or being able to walk to SoHo). Also, FiDi is a lot cheaper than Chelsea, the West Village, etc. The same apartment in Chelsea or the West Village is likely to be 30% -40% more expensive.

Front Street also has some great neighborhood restaurants. Being close to battery park and the promenade is also nice.

Having said that, FiDi certainly isn't perfect - I do wish we had some more restaurants and bars - I don't want tons of people the way the Village does, but a few more good restaurants and bars would be nice.

Millipod, maybe you are working too hard and not exploring the area very much? Or maybe your residential experience in Manhattan is limited and your "reference point" is a bit off? Once again, there is nothing wrong w/ the location of 20 Pine--or FiDi in general.

I don't really understand it when people say FiDi isn't "neighborhoody"--or when people say it's dead at night and on weekends. Having lived there until recently, I must say it's much more so (w/ more residentially oriented supermarkets, parks, shops, among the best school districts in Manhattan, and so on) than my current Midtown neighborhood, which people here seem to love so much.

Also, I actually love the fact that New School for Social Research appears to house its grad students in FiDi--and Pace and NYU just started housing their students there as well, according to my realtor. I'd personally love some young energy to balance the "relatively reserved" and touristy energy otherwise.

Finally, although some people seem to diss South Street Seaport, it is acually a very good place for routine, reasonably-priced shopping and dining (especially Cabana) if you don't mind tourists.

here here Duvravic!

> Few or no drunk college kids walking around at night;

Yes, instead tons of drunk JUST out of college kids. Because of the newnewss of the area, the buildings are FILLED with kids splitting up apartments. I've seen about as much young drunk stupidity in fidi as anywhere else (in the spots that aren't deserted).

"I don't really understand it when people say FiDi isn't "neighborhoody"--or when people say it's dead at night and on weekends. "

Probably because its true. I've done a few weeknights there, and at 8pm, its incredibly deserted. Weekends are a mixed bag, you get some tourists, but I wouldn't call it "neighborhoody".

Relative to the rest of America, FiDI has a lot going on. But this isn't America, this is New York City.

In those terms, its the suburbs.

"Finally, although some people seem to diss South Street Seaport, it is acually a very good place for routine, reasonably-priced shopping and dining (especially Cabana) if you don't mind tourists."

Assuming that is a big if... and they're knocking much of it down....

20 Pine will be a nice place to live if they ever complete the amenities. The pricing is much lower than the place I was in contract for at the District - the apts were more upscale and amenities better than at the District. In fact, I walked away from my deposit at the District because I saw the value here and that I was overpaying there. The big if is whether Leviev has the money to complete all this, or will he sell out to someone who can. I would not do anything until we find bottom on this real estate downturn, and who knows when that will be.

mhp1, do you mean there are no good restaurants in the FiDi or nearby?

Isn't the financial district very close to other neighborhoods which have some of the best restaurants in the world?

Being close to better neighborhoods doesn't quite fix the restaurant problem. Though walking to Chinatown could be cool (a lot of city workers do it).

That being said, there is Les Halles, which its great. Stone Street has a few. The burger spot (with the muffin buns) might be the best in town.

There isn't AS MUCH, but there are definitely some placing coming around...

But they'll need a few more years to get there.

We are about to rent a unit in 20 Pine and here are my conclusions:

1) there are alot more rentals available than what Streeteasy shows and there will likely be more coming. It appears that most owner/investors won't sell at the significant losses they'd be forced to take today, so they want to rent to minimize their current loss in hopes of a future recovery. That should mean rental deals, especially in the future.

2) while not all units are "no fee", the ones that aren't no fee have no chance of renting in the current environment given how many no fee units are availalbe. Renters paying agent fees are only a fantasy in the minds of the broker and the owner right now.

3) the ideal unit is on a high floor with South facing views. Low floor units get much less light given the other high-rises in the area. North and West facing views are especially bad, they overlook 2 other buildings which are very close. I'd rather share Rufus' Chicago basement than live in one of those units.

4) in my view, only a few units are currently priced to rent. Many are at least 25% overpriced, but owners are seeing reality and will negotiate down. Don't expect all of the ameneties to be ready anytime soon. Price the rental accordingly.

5) the floorplans are hit or miss. There are some great ones and there are plenty of bad ones. Looking at the squarefootage on Streeteasy (which are grossly overestimated anyway) or the floorpans doesn't give a very good idea of whether it's a livable unit or not, you really need to see how posts in the living area effect the unit or how much light the unit gets at dusk or dawn.

6) the kitchens are ridiculous, there only for looks. If you're single and eat out every night, they're perfect. This was the biggest negative for us, but we're going to live with it. But in my view, a comically stupid design decision.

7) overall, I think what sold us was the interior finishes, especially the bathrooms. Lot's of marble and wood,rainshowers, very nice. We found a nice unit with a great floorplan that suits us. We've negotiated a reasonable rent and we're hoping that we eventually get the upside of the promised amenities like the pool, spa, gym, etc. But even if we don't get them, we've already rented the unit to account for it.

I have a very strong feeling that the financial district will revert to what it has always been a financial district and these condos, co-ops, rentals will sit there unsold, unrented and be turned into office bldgs. Pres. Obama is going to create massive amount of jobs including wall street jobs but to repeat I strongly feel no one is going to live there, except for battery park city.

Does 20 Pine have anything for $2,000 a month, or is that too low?

I would suspect that $2K is doable, and if not today, by next month!

Goldie, have you been able to see the progress on the fitness center and the pool? How far are they from completion in your opinion?

The cheapest unit at 20 Pine is $2,200. Try negotiating with them. I am sure they will bite. If they don't take $2,000, then I am sure they will at least take $2,100.

The main thing I like about 20 Pine are the large bathrooms. I do not like having bathrooms the size of the coach bathroom on a 747.

I couldn't check the progress on the pool, they wouldn't let me down there. They say it's 3 months from being finished. I have my doubts.

3 months = 6 months

The first sale of Sponsor discounted units at 20 Pine has hit ACRIS - Apt. 901 (1005 sq ft.) sold for $700,000. Contract signed in Dec. 2008. 501 closed at $1,145k, 601 closed at $995k in Sept. 801 is listed in Street Easy at $1,015k, so the sale of 901 represents a discount of 31%.
More evidence of price declines in FiDi.

Yes, Maraman, but this is probably the MOST troubled development (also among the most luxurious) in the area, so the price decline here isn't necessarily reflective of how badly the area is doing in general (i.e., the extent of the discount in this bldg. shouldn't necessarily be expected elsewhere).

There are others that have done great, like 90 William, targetting a slightly different market segment.

When I was in the building in September., they said facilities finished by December. Sounds like its the same 3 month lie.

Meaning it could be forever.

Duravic - I agree a troubled building - my point being that other units in 20 Pine that are listed at $1,000 per sq ft are way above market. I believe 20 Pine represents good value compared to other luxury properties in FiDi once the amenities are completed.

If the amenities are completed. And no one knows what the common charges will be after the dust settles. I'm not sure at 700 that it's a sufficiently good value, even in comparison to other buildings in fidi.

There is a unit at 15 Broad asking 700/sf, and that's a solid building with floor plans that are likely more accessible than those at 20 Pine. For prices to come in line with rents in the area, prices need to fall to 4-500/sf.

Newbie - I agree prices are likely to further decline.
There are a lot of investors, Wall Street professionals who lost their job or had incomes cut who will be forced to sell at 20 Pine. And the Sponsor has 80 or so units that have been put up for bulk sale. These apts will eventually come to market at fire sales prices or even through foreclosure.

Looking to make an offer today or tomorrow an a high floor studio. any advice?

I have been advised by several realtors not to put a bid on the place. several problems, bad publicity and look at the amount of resales being listed...

Check out 75 Wall!

what problems