It's a former hotel, so the layouts are a little different than you might see in other buildings on Fifth Avenue that were originally apartments. It's considered to be a good building, and that stretch of Lower Fifth is known as "The Gold Coast."
The building allows up to 80% financing, which is "liberal" for that area, though depending on your entire financial status you might want to put more money down to be a better board candidate.
Re: 24 Fifth. I've lived in 30 Fifth (a coop) and 20 Fifth (a rental). 24 Fifth is right between them. The neighborhood is about as good as they get. Some of the primest blocks in all of Manhattan. That said, I think 24 Fifth is the lesser sibling of the surrounding prewars and 1950s buildings. While the entry areas have/are undergoing renovation, the outside needs some serious work--there is layer upon layer of peeling paint on the building's street level. There is also a plethora of rentals in the building and huge number of transients. Friends who lived there 5 years ago were (renters) were very unimpressed. I don't think the prices are all that great either compared to the amazing surrounding buildings. It would be the last of my choices on lower Fifth and 9th/10th/11th Streets east and west of 5th between University and 6th Aves.
As front_porch said, there are lots of awkward layouts there. However, some of the 2 bedrooms have nice winged layouts. See, for example, the 2 bedroom portion of the following proposed combination:
I had actually looked at such a 2 bedroom back in 2001 but it was a little out my then price range asking about $900,000). Plus the maintenance was, and still is, high on a per square foot basis (particularly since the building common areas do not seem that nice IMO.
Yes, I own a studio there (but don't currently live in the building). It is run by Elliman, and the current on-site manager is considerably better than the previous manager (also Elliman), who was rather incompetent. The current super is also quite good in my opinion--he's relatively new as well.
As another poster mentioned, there has recently been a tremendous overhaul of the lobby and hallways, with a gym added. The restoration/reno work on the halls and lobby are a vast improvement and have taken the building's appearance from rather shabby and worn to quite gracious. There is a ballroom that is rented out for weddings and such on the ground floor, as well as a restaurant space that changes hands every few years.
The building is landmarked, so you cannot change the style of your windows (at least not those facing the street--I am not certain about internal windows). The windows on all outward-facing apartments were replaced roughly 10 to 15 years ago.
The board made changes to its sublease policy within the past two years, so it is no longer as liberal as it had been previously.
As with any former residential hotel, 24 5th has its share of oddball long-term renters from before the building converted, many of whom still receive maid service as part of their rental agreements, so you'll sometimes see a uniformed maid here and there.
Rental searches show an abnormally high number of rentals in the building. Whether it is someone gaming the system and reposting the same units all the time or not I have no idea. But I receive regular streeteasy notices of rentals in this building. No other Gold Coast building permits this--other have very strict no-sublet or 1-2 years "hardship" sublet policies. What I find surprising is that the apartments in the building are not reflective of the difference in quality between the building and surrounding higher end residences. In part, this is indicative of the outstanding enclave this neighborhood is. Any apartment here is a great apartment the market seems to say.
For those not familiar with the Gold Coast area, it really is special. Between 6 Ave and Broadway noise seems to die down immensely. 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th streets are tree-lined and many townhouses have elaborate street-side gardens. There are picturesque churches, antique shops, stately pre-war and mid-century buildings, a decidedly up-scale population for the most part. Historic District and landmark designations protect light and development from ruining the area and basically guarantee existing views. Keeping it from getting too stodgy, a couple of NYU dormitories (in prewar gorgeous buildings) infuse the blocks with a measure of youth who unexpectedly manage to behave themselves for the most part after dark and don't make a nuisance of themselves (when moving here I worried about shouting drunken teens freed from their parents reigns and filling the streets with vomit and urine every night during the crawl home from the bars and clubs--I was wrong). Subways run along the edges of the neighborhood making getting around the city very easy, and it is a 5 minute walk to West GV, East GV, NoHo, Chelsea. Best of all, perhaps, is Washiington Sq. Park which is being renovated (work is running ahead of schedule) and should be complete by next summer. From what can already be seen, this is going to be a wonderful gift to the neighborhood--a coming together place for the diverse populations from all sides of the park. A great deal of thoughtful planning and involvement of the community has benefitted the quality of the renovation enormously. Not every wish was granted, but this is going to be a vast improvement over the existing, aging, and flawed space.
In short, there is a reason the apartments here sell for well over $1000 sq/ft...more like $1500+ sq/ft. in many cases. And thankfully, not one of those grotesque green/blue all-glass already dated condo towers in sight.
I live on lower fifth and love the area. I'm personally not a big fan of either 24 Fifth or 45 Fifth due to the apartment sizes/layouts, but I think they can be great options over some of the nonsense in other areas of the city. I've heard mixed reviews of 24 Fifth management, but bramstar seems to have the inside scoop. In any case, I would take either over 2 Fifth, mainly because I'm a big believer in pre-war. I think there are some 1-bedrooms at 1 Fifth for fairly reasonable prices, but no views.
I agree with Kylewest about the area. It is so calm and quiet and has an uptown feel with all of the conveniences of downtown. Plus (not to start an argument), but if there is a recession-proof area of the city, it is lower fifth. Buildings usually have tougher financing restrictions and require net assets in excess of the apartments value. Apartments in my building are also very hard to come by - most don't even make it to market because neighbors bid and combine or they are sold by word of mouth, so they are fairly coveted residences which command significantly higher than $1.5k per square foot. Someone in my building was asking $9m for a 1-bedroom (granted it was large and had a terrace but still...), and over at 59 West 12th which isn't even on Fifth - the owner of the penthouse bought out his only neighbor (a one-bedroom) at $3.5k per square foot a year or so ago.
I assume from info in buster's post, that buster speaks of 40 Fifth Ave.--arguably one of the best buildings in the city. The two penthouses that were for sale there in the last year were pretty amazing. The $12MM penthouse was the best apartment I've personally ever seen (well...I didn't actually see it; I just drooled over the floorplans on www.robilotti.com which represented the apartment) with conservatory, multiple terraces, gracious living spaces, windows in 3 directions. I was a soaring perch with unobstructed and protected views of all of GV and below. It sold in a heartbeat. Even the $9MM unit which had a slightly less gracious layout and was only 1 bedroom sold quickly. I agree that if any area will be the last affected in a downturn, it is this core at the center of GV. Even this year, with all the turmoil in the markets, some of the buildings have continued to set record prices (see 1-bedrooms at 2 Fifth or 30 Fifth, for example) while all others have essentially held value. Low inventory, no new construction, and a near perfect way to live in the heart of NYC make finding and being blessed with the ability to affort an apartment here pretty special. Does it cost less to rent? Forget it. 20 Fifth is the only high end rental in the area and you're lucky if you can find availability there.
I also live in this central GV area (and have for many years). It was all the reasons you gave for it being special (and with which I agree) that made me feel comfortbale buying in the past year when I otherwise feel that prices had stagnated and were finally beginning to decline. I have lived here for 15 years (renting) and bought a place that I intend (subject to possible changes in life circumstances of course) to make my home until they drag me out in a box. One other thing I like about the central GV area is the following. I personally find the area very charming. Some friends of mine find it a bit boring and prefer the EV, WV, Union Sq., or Soho. I don't agree but I always point out that I can (and frequently do) simply walk to each of those areas and easily enjoy the benefits of them.
Count me in on the love fest here. I'm currently an outsider looking for a reasonably priced way in. Any idea what the official geographic boundary of Gold Coast is? It definitely seems like some sellers on the periphery of the neighborhood are clinging on to the title to keep prices high. I'm also a bit skittish about buying right now. Any other suggestions for nearby rentals that may be worthwhile for the next year or so?
"Gold Coast" is a term also used to describe other stretches of 5th further uptown, but for lower 5th Ave, the Gold Coast is really just 5th Ave from Washington Sq. Park up to 12th St or 13th is you are really pushing it. The side streets running between 6th Ave. and Broadway are really central GVillage.
Once you cross 6 Ave going west, you are in the West Village. Cross Broadway to the east and you are in the east village. In either direction there is a very distinct change in vibe. Good luck finding a one bedroom for under $4500 in this area (some exist, not many). Find a one-bedroom for under $1MM with a servicable layout in a good building, BUY IT.
is 25 fifth avenue a good buy? what do you guys think of the building? my sister is being offered an apartment there and she seems to think its a good buy.
Steve--I'm amazed to see that an internal-facing, 5th floor studio is asking $2,600!!! Those things are absolute caves. Looks like my own tenant (south-facing, high floor) is getting a great deal ;)
briand: you need to give more info. like size and cost and view and condition. But aside from that, the comparables in this area are very easily obtained from streeteasy. And 24 Fifth is such a behemoth of a building with many sales that comps should be easy enough for your sister to find.
kylewest - I'm pretty shocked about the $9M unit, even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou, and it was a bit of a white elephant. It was renovated, but not really typical of other units in the building, and I would have wanted to give it a gut. Still, I guess limited supply and a terrace will drive prices... I wish I had a terrace... :-) Tim Burton is selling his triplex at 1 Fifth...
kylewest, are you sure 40 Fifth PHA was sold? Streeteasy shows "No longer available" but no sales price. How do you know if it was sold, and if so do you know if it was anything near the asking?
Amity95: the $12MM was sold as I recall according to the Robilotti website at the time. I'm pretty sure the $9MM was also reportedly sold, but I don't remember where I got that from anymore. The two were very different with the $12MM looking more like an actual bargain to me. The $9MM was very oddly configured, but with terraces, views, A-1 white glove building on the Gold Coast I guess there were takers. Maybe someone here knows more...
I believe both those 40 Fifth Avenue penthouses are off the market for a little while (it is vacation time) but I don't think either of them was sold.
I love the micro-neighborhood too, especially that West 10th/West 11th corridor, where I just placed happy renters. The supply is limited, so if you want to live there it makes sense to be patient.
Yes, front-porch, that sounds right. I remember when they were listed, and when they were unlisted - neither was ever reported as "sold." Perhaps I'm wrong, but even though they are great properties I thought the asking prices were incredibly aspirational.
I think I need to be a little general to protect the privacy and confidentiality of my clients, so let's go for "it's a walk-up two-bedroom floor-thru with good original details that rented between $4K and $5K" -- does that help?
buster 2056--Why do you waste a broker's time and annoy the seller with your looky-looks of apartments you don't want or more probably can't afford? Do you give tours of your own apartment to outsiders? Kylewest is a classier act, only drooling over floor plans and recognizing that it's not OK for strangers to needlessly invade other's privacy. Get a life.
chaver, thank you, sort of I guess. I must say, though, when I saw a broker showing an apartment in my former coop, if there was not a client around, I often asked if the broker would mind if I took a look around. So long as the broker had to be there and they were between clients, they always said it was fine. I imagine the brokers correctly figured it could only help since if I didn't want the place, I could chat it up or possibly know someone who did. It also helped give me an idea of my own unit's worth and was a way for brokers to establish relationships with a possible future client (me). So, here, while the interest of buster may have been purely prurient, no harm was likely done. And honestly, it is pretty irresistable to see such special apartments if the opportunity arises. It was an amazing adventure of sorts when I was invited to take a look at Lady Fairfax's apartment in the Pierre's former ballroom many years ago (the one listed for $50MM when she died).
If buster wasted the broker's time by scheduling an appointment to just look around, I take back everything I said. That's not nice to waste someone's time like that. Very disrespectful--particularly for such a professional broker as was representing the penthouses. But I'm sure that isn't what buster did.
From the way buster wrote his thread "even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou," you know he isn't a serious buyer. Sorry, but a broker has no right to show a property to someone who is just curious.If buster wants to see apartments he can go to open houses. Some white glove buildings don't allow them.
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (m underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
FOR SOME REASON MY ORIGINAL POST WAS NOT FULLY DISPLAYED:
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (m underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
DARN, IT DID IT AGAIN, I WILL POST PARAGRAPH AT A TIME:
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (<1 block). I was showed the apartment within a couple of minutes and was interested in renting. The agent was completely unwilling to negotiate the commission, which seemed unreasonable based on the amount of effort put forth in my particular situation (less than 30 minutes of her time - the application was not complicated either and would not have required a board interview, so maybe if you want to include a credit and background check you could say that an hour was spent on the deal). However, there are likely a high number of people that had seen the apartment and the agent needed to, in some form be compensated for that time. I definitely consider that my payment would have not only compensated the agent for the time spent on my rental, but also subsidizing the time spent with other potential tenants. By the way, I ended up choosing another apartment that was cheaper, basically due to not having to pay a commission, so that agent lost out on the deal and then my hours worth of time needed to be subsidized by someone else.
In my second example, I was recently very serious about buying an apartment and was introduced to an agent to show me apartments (a member of that brokerages' "Multi-Million Dollar Club", which I assume is some sort of endorsement of success, although it would be difficult to be an agent here and not do more than $1mm in business). I would get emails which were unfiltered runs from the MLS of apartments that fit the basic criteria for my search (neighborhood, size, cost). It was clear that the agent did not spend any effort to comb through the listings, so perhaps you could attribute a couple of minutes to each search (at 3 searches we'll say 15 minutes?). We saw three apartments together, on two separate occasions, and the agent may have expended a couple of hours on that part, including the commute from the UWS to GV. The agent encouraged me to go to solo open houses on Sundays, but make sure to let the seller's agent know that I was represented. When I found an apartment that I was considering bidding for I asked for advice from the agent. The response was along the lines of "an apartment's value is the intersection of what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept". True enough, but it was clear that, again, minimal effort was expended on my behalf to run comps, talk bidding strategy, etc. (maybe credit the agent with an hour or two here). Feeling a bit lost as well as nervous about the market I never made an offer through that agent - although I still think about that apartment regularly and wonder if I am able to get better representation in the case that I do want to pursue the opportunity in the future. However, assuming that I went ahead and devised my own bidding strategy - offering less than asking - and communicated with the seller through the agent we could tack on a couple of hours. Coordinating the board package/interview and closing would take some time, but I don't know how much so I'll say a somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours in order to get to a nice round number of around 10 hours - 2 on locating/showing apartments, 2 on negotiating price, 6 on closing. For a $800k apartment, the agent's commission would equate to approximately $12k (half of 3% paid to buyer's agent), or $1,200 per hour. That seems like a very high salary to me, if again you don't factor in the time spent not closing fee-generating deals. And, there are certainly those agents that will work harder on any particular deal. You could nitpick at my numbers: my search time was abnormally low; I'm underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
SORRY ABOUT THE MULTIPLE POSTINGS, PERHAPS STREETEASY SHOULD LET POSTERS RETRACT THEIR MESSAGES
Thanks for the defense, Kylewest - you are basically right, and I def did not waste the broker's time (and mine) actually making an appointment. JAR handles a large % of sales in 40 Fifth as well as a number of white glove buildings in the area. Resident curiosity is really common, and it never hurts a broker (esp at an ultra high end boutique firm) to maintain relationships with past clients. May not be interested in the PH (esp with the ugs renos), but it's helpful to catch up, compare vs my apt, and discuss current ppsf. FYI, it was not sold, but rented.
jasper, what are you talking about? what are you responding to in this thread? I couldn't follow any of what you said in terms of where it fits into what is being discussed.
The discussion turned to complaining about people wasting the time of brokers and I am trying to point out that brokers take that into consideration when setting their commissions.
Why didn't you just say so? I agree in part, but that doesn't make it okay. It's as if to say that Macy's builds shrinkage (shoplifting) costs into the price of their clothes so it is okay to steal.
So calling a broker to just kill time looking at things isn't very nice. But again, if the broker knows your position and is willing, or is there anyway, I don't see it as an ethical problem or anything else to take a look.
Not sure that is a fair parallel. Although perhaps it's accurate in that buster was attacked as if he were some sort of criminal, which is ridiculous.
As you said in your own post, there is a bit of serendipity in this industry. So even if some one classifies themselves as a 'looky-lou' you never know what could come of them seeing the apartment. Perhaps they have a friend that they refer to the seller or, less likely, win the lottery and decide they can afford to buy the apartment. All it takes is one buyer and I think it's fair to expect an agent to run down a lot of leads that will be nothing but dead ends - they are getting paid to do so.
What about the seller? Isn't their time being wasted by looky-lookers? They have to put away everything, make sure the apartment is cleaned, etc. Then they have to leave the premises for the showing. Sounds as though buster may live in the bldg being discussed. If so, why isn't he upfront and ask his neighbor if he can see the property. It's also in really bad taste to publicly describe an apartment in the negative terms he did. Just because it didn't fit his needs doesn't mean it isn't a beautiful apartment.
Chaver, without getting into specifics, none of that was an issue so there was no inconvenience to the selling party - trust me. It probably was in poor taste to describe the apartment as ugly, but it's just my opinion. You might find it to be beautiful, especially if you like ugly renovations.
24 Fifth Avenue
Does anyone know anything about the building? Is it well-run/
It's a former hotel, so the layouts are a little different than you might see in other buildings on Fifth Avenue that were originally apartments. It's considered to be a good building, and that stretch of Lower Fifth is known as "The Gold Coast."
The building allows up to 80% financing, which is "liberal" for that area, though depending on your entire financial status you might want to put more money down to be a better board candidate.
ali r.
{downtown broker}
Re: 24 Fifth. I've lived in 30 Fifth (a coop) and 20 Fifth (a rental). 24 Fifth is right between them. The neighborhood is about as good as they get. Some of the primest blocks in all of Manhattan. That said, I think 24 Fifth is the lesser sibling of the surrounding prewars and 1950s buildings. While the entry areas have/are undergoing renovation, the outside needs some serious work--there is layer upon layer of peeling paint on the building's street level. There is also a plethora of rentals in the building and huge number of transients. Friends who lived there 5 years ago were (renters) were very unimpressed. I don't think the prices are all that great either compared to the amazing surrounding buildings. It would be the last of my choices on lower Fifth and 9th/10th/11th Streets east and west of 5th between University and 6th Aves.
As front_porch said, there are lots of awkward layouts there. However, some of the 2 bedrooms have nice winged layouts. See, for example, the 2 bedroom portion of the following proposed combination:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/320406-coop-24-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-manhattan
I had actually looked at such a 2 bedroom back in 2001 but it was a little out my then price range asking about $900,000). Plus the maintenance was, and still is, high on a per square foot basis (particularly since the building common areas do not seem that nice IMO.
Thanks--very helpful comments
Yes, I own a studio there (but don't currently live in the building). It is run by Elliman, and the current on-site manager is considerably better than the previous manager (also Elliman), who was rather incompetent. The current super is also quite good in my opinion--he's relatively new as well.
As another poster mentioned, there has recently been a tremendous overhaul of the lobby and hallways, with a gym added. The restoration/reno work on the halls and lobby are a vast improvement and have taken the building's appearance from rather shabby and worn to quite gracious. There is a ballroom that is rented out for weddings and such on the ground floor, as well as a restaurant space that changes hands every few years.
The building is landmarked, so you cannot change the style of your windows (at least not those facing the street--I am not certain about internal windows). The windows on all outward-facing apartments were replaced roughly 10 to 15 years ago.
The board made changes to its sublease policy within the past two years, so it is no longer as liberal as it had been previously.
As with any former residential hotel, 24 5th has its share of oddball long-term renters from before the building converted, many of whom still receive maid service as part of their rental agreements, so you'll sometimes see a uniformed maid here and there.
24 Fifth continues to rent out apartments as no-fee rentals. You may want to find out the sponsor's long-term intent.
Rental searches show an abnormally high number of rentals in the building. Whether it is someone gaming the system and reposting the same units all the time or not I have no idea. But I receive regular streeteasy notices of rentals in this building. No other Gold Coast building permits this--other have very strict no-sublet or 1-2 years "hardship" sublet policies. What I find surprising is that the apartments in the building are not reflective of the difference in quality between the building and surrounding higher end residences. In part, this is indicative of the outstanding enclave this neighborhood is. Any apartment here is a great apartment the market seems to say.
For those not familiar with the Gold Coast area, it really is special. Between 6 Ave and Broadway noise seems to die down immensely. 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th streets are tree-lined and many townhouses have elaborate street-side gardens. There are picturesque churches, antique shops, stately pre-war and mid-century buildings, a decidedly up-scale population for the most part. Historic District and landmark designations protect light and development from ruining the area and basically guarantee existing views. Keeping it from getting too stodgy, a couple of NYU dormitories (in prewar gorgeous buildings) infuse the blocks with a measure of youth who unexpectedly manage to behave themselves for the most part after dark and don't make a nuisance of themselves (when moving here I worried about shouting drunken teens freed from their parents reigns and filling the streets with vomit and urine every night during the crawl home from the bars and clubs--I was wrong). Subways run along the edges of the neighborhood making getting around the city very easy, and it is a 5 minute walk to West GV, East GV, NoHo, Chelsea. Best of all, perhaps, is Washiington Sq. Park which is being renovated (work is running ahead of schedule) and should be complete by next summer. From what can already be seen, this is going to be a wonderful gift to the neighborhood--a coming together place for the diverse populations from all sides of the park. A great deal of thoughtful planning and involvement of the community has benefitted the quality of the renovation enormously. Not every wish was granted, but this is going to be a vast improvement over the existing, aging, and flawed space.
In short, there is a reason the apartments here sell for well over $1000 sq/ft...more like $1500+ sq/ft. in many cases. And thankfully, not one of those grotesque green/blue all-glass already dated condo towers in sight.
I live on lower fifth and love the area. I'm personally not a big fan of either 24 Fifth or 45 Fifth due to the apartment sizes/layouts, but I think they can be great options over some of the nonsense in other areas of the city. I've heard mixed reviews of 24 Fifth management, but bramstar seems to have the inside scoop. In any case, I would take either over 2 Fifth, mainly because I'm a big believer in pre-war. I think there are some 1-bedrooms at 1 Fifth for fairly reasonable prices, but no views.
I agree with Kylewest about the area. It is so calm and quiet and has an uptown feel with all of the conveniences of downtown. Plus (not to start an argument), but if there is a recession-proof area of the city, it is lower fifth. Buildings usually have tougher financing restrictions and require net assets in excess of the apartments value. Apartments in my building are also very hard to come by - most don't even make it to market because neighbors bid and combine or they are sold by word of mouth, so they are fairly coveted residences which command significantly higher than $1.5k per square foot. Someone in my building was asking $9m for a 1-bedroom (granted it was large and had a terrace but still...), and over at 59 West 12th which isn't even on Fifth - the owner of the penthouse bought out his only neighbor (a one-bedroom) at $3.5k per square foot a year or so ago.
I assume from info in buster's post, that buster speaks of 40 Fifth Ave.--arguably one of the best buildings in the city. The two penthouses that were for sale there in the last year were pretty amazing. The $12MM penthouse was the best apartment I've personally ever seen (well...I didn't actually see it; I just drooled over the floorplans on www.robilotti.com which represented the apartment) with conservatory, multiple terraces, gracious living spaces, windows in 3 directions. I was a soaring perch with unobstructed and protected views of all of GV and below. It sold in a heartbeat. Even the $9MM unit which had a slightly less gracious layout and was only 1 bedroom sold quickly. I agree that if any area will be the last affected in a downturn, it is this core at the center of GV. Even this year, with all the turmoil in the markets, some of the buildings have continued to set record prices (see 1-bedrooms at 2 Fifth or 30 Fifth, for example) while all others have essentially held value. Low inventory, no new construction, and a near perfect way to live in the heart of NYC make finding and being blessed with the ability to affort an apartment here pretty special. Does it cost less to rent? Forget it. 20 Fifth is the only high end rental in the area and you're lucky if you can find availability there.
kylewest,
I also live in this central GV area (and have for many years). It was all the reasons you gave for it being special (and with which I agree) that made me feel comfortbale buying in the past year when I otherwise feel that prices had stagnated and were finally beginning to decline. I have lived here for 15 years (renting) and bought a place that I intend (subject to possible changes in life circumstances of course) to make my home until they drag me out in a box. One other thing I like about the central GV area is the following. I personally find the area very charming. Some friends of mine find it a bit boring and prefer the EV, WV, Union Sq., or Soho. I don't agree but I always point out that I can (and frequently do) simply walk to each of those areas and easily enjoy the benefits of them.
Count me in on the love fest here. I'm currently an outsider looking for a reasonably priced way in. Any idea what the official geographic boundary of Gold Coast is? It definitely seems like some sellers on the periphery of the neighborhood are clinging on to the title to keep prices high. I'm also a bit skittish about buying right now. Any other suggestions for nearby rentals that may be worthwhile for the next year or so?
The sponsor continues to rent these units out as no-fee apartments:
http://www.nybits.com/apartments/24_fifth_ave.html
"Gold Coast" is a term also used to describe other stretches of 5th further uptown, but for lower 5th Ave, the Gold Coast is really just 5th Ave from Washington Sq. Park up to 12th St or 13th is you are really pushing it. The side streets running between 6th Ave. and Broadway are really central GVillage.
Once you cross 6 Ave going west, you are in the West Village. Cross Broadway to the east and you are in the east village. In either direction there is a very distinct change in vibe. Good luck finding a one bedroom for under $4500 in this area (some exist, not many). Find a one-bedroom for under $1MM with a servicable layout in a good building, BUY IT.
is 25 fifth avenue a good buy? what do you guys think of the building? my sister is being offered an apartment there and she seems to think its a good buy.
Steve--I'm amazed to see that an internal-facing, 5th floor studio is asking $2,600!!! Those things are absolute caves. Looks like my own tenant (south-facing, high floor) is getting a great deal ;)
briand: you need to give more info. like size and cost and view and condition. But aside from that, the comparables in this area are very easily obtained from streeteasy. And 24 Fifth is such a behemoth of a building with many sales that comps should be easy enough for your sister to find.
kylewest - I'm pretty shocked about the $9M unit, even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou, and it was a bit of a white elephant. It was renovated, but not really typical of other units in the building, and I would have wanted to give it a gut. Still, I guess limited supply and a terrace will drive prices... I wish I had a terrace... :-) Tim Burton is selling his triplex at 1 Fifth...
kylewest, are you sure 40 Fifth PHA was sold? Streeteasy shows "No longer available" but no sales price. How do you know if it was sold, and if so do you know if it was anything near the asking?
Amity95: the $12MM was sold as I recall according to the Robilotti website at the time. I'm pretty sure the $9MM was also reportedly sold, but I don't remember where I got that from anymore. The two were very different with the $12MM looking more like an actual bargain to me. The $9MM was very oddly configured, but with terraces, views, A-1 white glove building on the Gold Coast I guess there were takers. Maybe someone here knows more...
I believe both those 40 Fifth Avenue penthouses are off the market for a little while (it is vacation time) but I don't think either of them was sold.
I love the micro-neighborhood too, especially that West 10th/West 11th corridor, where I just placed happy renters. The supply is limited, so if you want to live there it makes sense to be patient.
ali r.
{downtown broker}
Yes, front-porch, that sounds right. I remember when they were listed, and when they were unlisted - neither was ever reported as "sold." Perhaps I'm wrong, but even though they are great properties I thought the asking prices were incredibly aspirational.
Ali,
Can you disclose how much the rent was/is for your recent deal, as well as apartment size (or just # of br)?
I think I need to be a little general to protect the privacy and confidentiality of my clients, so let's go for "it's a walk-up two-bedroom floor-thru with good original details that rented between $4K and $5K" -- does that help?
ali r.
{downtown broker}
buster 2056--Why do you waste a broker's time and annoy the seller with your looky-looks of apartments you don't want or more probably can't afford? Do you give tours of your own apartment to outsiders? Kylewest is a classier act, only drooling over floor plans and recognizing that it's not OK for strangers to needlessly invade other's privacy. Get a life.
chaver, thank you, sort of I guess. I must say, though, when I saw a broker showing an apartment in my former coop, if there was not a client around, I often asked if the broker would mind if I took a look around. So long as the broker had to be there and they were between clients, they always said it was fine. I imagine the brokers correctly figured it could only help since if I didn't want the place, I could chat it up or possibly know someone who did. It also helped give me an idea of my own unit's worth and was a way for brokers to establish relationships with a possible future client (me). So, here, while the interest of buster may have been purely prurient, no harm was likely done. And honestly, it is pretty irresistable to see such special apartments if the opportunity arises. It was an amazing adventure of sorts when I was invited to take a look at Lady Fairfax's apartment in the Pierre's former ballroom many years ago (the one listed for $50MM when she died).
If buster wasted the broker's time by scheduling an appointment to just look around, I take back everything I said. That's not nice to waste someone's time like that. Very disrespectful--particularly for such a professional broker as was representing the penthouses. But I'm sure that isn't what buster did.
From the way buster wrote his thread "even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou," you know he isn't a serious buyer. Sorry, but a broker has no right to show a property to someone who is just curious.If buster wants to see apartments he can go to open houses. Some white glove buildings don't allow them.
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (m underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
FOR SOME REASON MY ORIGINAL POST WAS NOT FULLY DISPLAYED:
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (m underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
DARN, IT DID IT AGAIN, I WILL POST PARAGRAPH AT A TIME:
Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (<1 block). I was showed the apartment within a couple of minutes and was interested in renting. The agent was completely unwilling to negotiate the commission, which seemed unreasonable based on the amount of effort put forth in my particular situation (less than 30 minutes of her time - the application was not complicated either and would not have required a board interview, so maybe if you want to include a credit and background check you could say that an hour was spent on the deal). However, there are likely a high number of people that had seen the apartment and the agent needed to, in some form be compensated for that time. I definitely consider that my payment would have not only compensated the agent for the time spent on my rental, but also subsidizing the time spent with other potential tenants. By the way, I ended up choosing another apartment that was cheaper, basically due to not having to pay a commission, so that agent lost out on the deal and then my hours worth of time needed to be subsidized by someone else.
In my second example, I was recently very serious about buying an apartment and was introduced to an agent to show me apartments (a member of that brokerages' "Multi-Million Dollar Club", which I assume is some sort of endorsement of success, although it would be difficult to be an agent here and not do more than $1mm in business). I would get emails which were unfiltered runs from the MLS of apartments that fit the basic criteria for my search (neighborhood, size, cost). It was clear that the agent did not spend any effort to comb through the listings, so perhaps you could attribute a couple of minutes to each search (at 3 searches we'll say 15 minutes?). We saw three apartments together, on two separate occasions, and the agent may have expended a couple of hours on that part, including the commute from the UWS to GV. The agent encouraged me to go to solo open houses on Sundays, but make sure to let the seller's agent know that I was represented. When I found an apartment that I was considering bidding for I asked for advice from the agent. The response was along the lines of "an apartment's value is the intersection of what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept". True enough, but it was clear that, again, minimal effort was expended on my behalf to run comps, talk bidding strategy, etc. (maybe credit the agent with an hour or two here). Feeling a bit lost as well as nervous about the market I never made an offer through that agent - although I still think about that apartment regularly and wonder if I am able to get better representation in the case that I do want to pursue the opportunity in the future. However, assuming that I went ahead and devised my own bidding strategy - offering less than asking - and communicated with the seller through the agent we could tack on a couple of hours. Coordinating the board package/interview and closing would take some time, but I don't know how much so I'll say a somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours in order to get to a nice round number of around 10 hours - 2 on locating/showing apartments, 2 on negotiating price, 6 on closing. For a $800k apartment, the agent's commission would equate to approximately $12k (half of 3% paid to buyer's agent), or $1,200 per hour. That seems like a very high salary to me, if again you don't factor in the time spent not closing fee-generating deals. And, there are certainly those agents that will work harder on any particular deal. You could nitpick at my numbers: my search time was abnormally low; I'm underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.
Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.
SORRY ABOUT THE MULTIPLE POSTINGS, PERHAPS STREETEASY SHOULD LET POSTERS RETRACT THEIR MESSAGES
Thanks for the defense, Kylewest - you are basically right, and I def did not waste the broker's time (and mine) actually making an appointment. JAR handles a large % of sales in 40 Fifth as well as a number of white glove buildings in the area. Resident curiosity is really common, and it never hurts a broker (esp at an ultra high end boutique firm) to maintain relationships with past clients. May not be interested in the PH (esp with the ugs renos), but it's helpful to catch up, compare vs my apt, and discuss current ppsf. FYI, it was not sold, but rented.
jasper, what are you talking about? what are you responding to in this thread? I couldn't follow any of what you said in terms of where it fits into what is being discussed.
The discussion turned to complaining about people wasting the time of brokers and I am trying to point out that brokers take that into consideration when setting their commissions.
Why didn't you just say so? I agree in part, but that doesn't make it okay. It's as if to say that Macy's builds shrinkage (shoplifting) costs into the price of their clothes so it is okay to steal.
So calling a broker to just kill time looking at things isn't very nice. But again, if the broker knows your position and is willing, or is there anyway, I don't see it as an ethical problem or anything else to take a look.
Not sure that is a fair parallel. Although perhaps it's accurate in that buster was attacked as if he were some sort of criminal, which is ridiculous.
As you said in your own post, there is a bit of serendipity in this industry. So even if some one classifies themselves as a 'looky-lou' you never know what could come of them seeing the apartment. Perhaps they have a friend that they refer to the seller or, less likely, win the lottery and decide they can afford to buy the apartment. All it takes is one buyer and I think it's fair to expect an agent to run down a lot of leads that will be nothing but dead ends - they are getting paid to do so.
Point taken. I tend to make analogies that can border on the absurd and that can be infuriating.
It was chaver's comments that I was really addressing.
What about the seller? Isn't their time being wasted by looky-lookers? They have to put away everything, make sure the apartment is cleaned, etc. Then they have to leave the premises for the showing. Sounds as though buster may live in the bldg being discussed. If so, why isn't he upfront and ask his neighbor if he can see the property. It's also in really bad taste to publicly describe an apartment in the negative terms he did. Just because it didn't fit his needs doesn't mean it isn't a beautiful apartment.
chaver
kylewest - I think jasper might have been drunk when writing the posts. Just a (drunk) opinion.
Chaver, without getting into specifics, none of that was an issue so there was no inconvenience to the selling party - trust me. It probably was in poor taste to describe the apartment as ugly, but it's just my opinion. You might find it to be beautiful, especially if you like ugly renovations.