24 Fifth Avenue

It's a former hotel, so the layouts are a little different than you might see in other buildings on Fifth Avenue that were originally apartments. It's considered to be a good building, and that stretch of Lower Fifth is known as "The Gold Coast."

The building allows up to 80% financing, which is "liberal" for that area, though depending on your entire financial status you might want to put more money down to be a better board candidate.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Re: 24 Fifth. I've lived in 30 Fifth (a coop) and 20 Fifth (a rental). 24 Fifth is right between them. The neighborhood is about as good as they get. Some of the primest blocks in all of Manhattan. That said, I think 24 Fifth is the lesser sibling of the surrounding prewars and 1950s buildings. While the entry areas have/are undergoing renovation, the outside needs some serious work--there is layer upon layer of peeling paint on the building's street level. There is also a plethora of rentals in the building and huge number of transients. Friends who lived there 5 years ago were (renters) were very unimpressed. I don't think the prices are all that great either compared to the amazing surrounding buildings. It would be the last of my choices on lower Fifth and 9th/10th/11th Streets east and west of 5th between University and 6th Aves.

As front_porch said, there are lots of awkward layouts there. However, some of the 2 bedrooms have nice winged layouts. See, for example, the 2 bedroom portion of the following proposed combination:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/320406-coop-24-fifth-avenue-greenwich-village-manhattan

I had actually looked at such a 2 bedroom back in 2001 but it was a little out my then price range asking about $900,000). Plus the maintenance was, and still is, high on a per square foot basis (particularly since the building common areas do not seem that nice IMO.

Thanks--very helpful comments

Yes, I own a studio there (but don't currently live in the building). It is run by Elliman, and the current on-site manager is considerably better than the previous manager (also Elliman), who was rather incompetent. The current super is also quite good in my opinion--he's relatively new as well.

As another poster mentioned, there has recently been a tremendous overhaul of the lobby and hallways, with a gym added. The restoration/reno work on the halls and lobby are a vast improvement and have taken the building's appearance from rather shabby and worn to quite gracious. There is a ballroom that is rented out for weddings and such on the ground floor, as well as a restaurant space that changes hands every few years.

The building is landmarked, so you cannot change the style of your windows (at least not those facing the street--I am not certain about internal windows). The windows on all outward-facing apartments were replaced roughly 10 to 15 years ago.

The board made changes to its sublease policy within the past two years, so it is no longer as liberal as it had been previously.

As with any former residential hotel, 24 5th has its share of oddball long-term renters from before the building converted, many of whom still receive maid service as part of their rental agreements, so you'll sometimes see a uniformed maid here and there.

24 Fifth continues to rent out apartments as no-fee rentals. You may want to find out the sponsor's long-term intent.

Rental searches show an abnormally high number of rentals in the building. Whether it is someone gaming the system and reposting the same units all the time or not I have no idea. But I receive regular streeteasy notices of rentals in this building. No other Gold Coast building permits this--other have very strict no-sublet or 1-2 years "hardship" sublet policies. What I find surprising is that the apartments in the building are not reflective of the difference in quality between the building and surrounding higher end residences. In part, this is indicative of the outstanding enclave this neighborhood is. Any apartment here is a great apartment the market seems to say.

For those not familiar with the Gold Coast area, it really is special. Between 6 Ave and Broadway noise seems to die down immensely. 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th streets are tree-lined and many townhouses have elaborate street-side gardens. There are picturesque churches, antique shops, stately pre-war and mid-century buildings, a decidedly up-scale population for the most part. Historic District and landmark designations protect light and development from ruining the area and basically guarantee existing views. Keeping it from getting too stodgy, a couple of NYU dormitories (in prewar gorgeous buildings) infuse the blocks with a measure of youth who unexpectedly manage to behave themselves for the most part after dark and don't make a nuisance of themselves (when moving here I worried about shouting drunken teens freed from their parents reigns and filling the streets with vomit and urine every night during the crawl home from the bars and clubs--I was wrong). Subways run along the edges of the neighborhood making getting around the city very easy, and it is a 5 minute walk to West GV, East GV, NoHo, Chelsea. Best of all, perhaps, is Washiington Sq. Park which is being renovated (work is running ahead of schedule) and should be complete by next summer. From what can already be seen, this is going to be a wonderful gift to the neighborhood--a coming together place for the diverse populations from all sides of the park. A great deal of thoughtful planning and involvement of the community has benefitted the quality of the renovation enormously. Not every wish was granted, but this is going to be a vast improvement over the existing, aging, and flawed space.

In short, there is a reason the apartments here sell for well over $1000 sq/ft...more like $1500+ sq/ft. in many cases. And thankfully, not one of those grotesque green/blue all-glass already dated condo towers in sight.

I live on lower fifth and love the area. I'm personally not a big fan of either 24 Fifth or 45 Fifth due to the apartment sizes/layouts, but I think they can be great options over some of the nonsense in other areas of the city. I've heard mixed reviews of 24 Fifth management, but bramstar seems to have the inside scoop. In any case, I would take either over 2 Fifth, mainly because I'm a big believer in pre-war. I think there are some 1-bedrooms at 1 Fifth for fairly reasonable prices, but no views.

I agree with Kylewest about the area. It is so calm and quiet and has an uptown feel with all of the conveniences of downtown. Plus (not to start an argument), but if there is a recession-proof area of the city, it is lower fifth. Buildings usually have tougher financing restrictions and require net assets in excess of the apartments value. Apartments in my building are also very hard to come by - most don't even make it to market because neighbors bid and combine or they are sold by word of mouth, so they are fairly coveted residences which command significantly higher than $1.5k per square foot. Someone in my building was asking $9m for a 1-bedroom (granted it was large and had a terrace but still...), and over at 59 West 12th which isn't even on Fifth - the owner of the penthouse bought out his only neighbor (a one-bedroom) at $3.5k per square foot a year or so ago.

I assume from info in buster's post, that buster speaks of 40 Fifth Ave.--arguably one of the best buildings in the city. The two penthouses that were for sale there in the last year were pretty amazing. The $12MM penthouse was the best apartment I've personally ever seen (well...I didn't actually see it; I just drooled over the floorplans on www.robilotti.com which represented the apartment) with conservatory, multiple terraces, gracious living spaces, windows in 3 directions. I was a soaring perch with unobstructed and protected views of all of GV and below. It sold in a heartbeat. Even the $9MM unit which had a slightly less gracious layout and was only 1 bedroom sold quickly. I agree that if any area will be the last affected in a downturn, it is this core at the center of GV. Even this year, with all the turmoil in the markets, some of the buildings have continued to set record prices (see 1-bedrooms at 2 Fifth or 30 Fifth, for example) while all others have essentially held value. Low inventory, no new construction, and a near perfect way to live in the heart of NYC make finding and being blessed with the ability to affort an apartment here pretty special. Does it cost less to rent? Forget it. 20 Fifth is the only high end rental in the area and you're lucky if you can find availability there.

kylewest,

I also live in this central GV area (and have for many years). It was all the reasons you gave for it being special (and with which I agree) that made me feel comfortbale buying in the past year when I otherwise feel that prices had stagnated and were finally beginning to decline. I have lived here for 15 years (renting) and bought a place that I intend (subject to possible changes in life circumstances of course) to make my home until they drag me out in a box. One other thing I like about the central GV area is the following. I personally find the area very charming. Some friends of mine find it a bit boring and prefer the EV, WV, Union Sq., or Soho. I don't agree but I always point out that I can (and frequently do) simply walk to each of those areas and easily enjoy the benefits of them.

Count me in on the love fest here. I'm currently an outsider looking for a reasonably priced way in. Any idea what the official geographic boundary of Gold Coast is? It definitely seems like some sellers on the periphery of the neighborhood are clinging on to the title to keep prices high. I'm also a bit skittish about buying right now. Any other suggestions for nearby rentals that may be worthwhile for the next year or so?

The sponsor continues to rent these units out as no-fee apartments:

http://www.nybits.com/apartments/24_fifth_ave.html

"Gold Coast" is a term also used to describe other stretches of 5th further uptown, but for lower 5th Ave, the Gold Coast is really just 5th Ave from Washington Sq. Park up to 12th St or 13th is you are really pushing it. The side streets running between 6th Ave. and Broadway are really central GVillage.
Once you cross 6 Ave going west, you are in the West Village. Cross Broadway to the east and you are in the east village. In either direction there is a very distinct change in vibe. Good luck finding a one bedroom for under $4500 in this area (some exist, not many). Find a one-bedroom for under $1MM with a servicable layout in a good building, BUY IT.

is 25 fifth avenue a good buy? what do you guys think of the building? my sister is being offered an apartment there and she seems to think its a good buy.

Steve--I'm amazed to see that an internal-facing, 5th floor studio is asking $2,600!!! Those things are absolute caves. Looks like my own tenant (south-facing, high floor) is getting a great deal ;)

briand: you need to give more info. like size and cost and view and condition. But aside from that, the comparables in this area are very easily obtained from streeteasy. And 24 Fifth is such a behemoth of a building with many sales that comps should be easy enough for your sister to find.

kylewest - I'm pretty shocked about the $9M unit, even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou, and it was a bit of a white elephant. It was renovated, but not really typical of other units in the building, and I would have wanted to give it a gut. Still, I guess limited supply and a terrace will drive prices... I wish I had a terrace... :-) Tim Burton is selling his triplex at 1 Fifth...

kylewest, are you sure 40 Fifth PHA was sold? Streeteasy shows "No longer available" but no sales price. How do you know if it was sold, and if so do you know if it was anything near the asking?

Amity95: the $12MM was sold as I recall according to the Robilotti website at the time. I'm pretty sure the $9MM was also reportedly sold, but I don't remember where I got that from anymore. The two were very different with the $12MM looking more like an actual bargain to me. The $9MM was very oddly configured, but with terraces, views, A-1 white glove building on the Gold Coast I guess there were takers. Maybe someone here knows more...

I believe both those 40 Fifth Avenue penthouses are off the market for a little while (it is vacation time) but I don't think either of them was sold.

I love the micro-neighborhood too, especially that West 10th/West 11th corridor, where I just placed happy renters. The supply is limited, so if you want to live there it makes sense to be patient.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Yes, front-porch, that sounds right. I remember when they were listed, and when they were unlisted - neither was ever reported as "sold." Perhaps I'm wrong, but even though they are great properties I thought the asking prices were incredibly aspirational.

Ali,

Can you disclose how much the rent was/is for your recent deal, as well as apartment size (or just # of br)?

I think I need to be a little general to protect the privacy and confidentiality of my clients, so let's go for "it's a walk-up two-bedroom floor-thru with good original details that rented between $4K and $5K" -- does that help?

ali r.
{downtown broker}

buster 2056--Why do you waste a broker's time and annoy the seller with your looky-looks of apartments you don't want or more probably can't afford? Do you give tours of your own apartment to outsiders? Kylewest is a classier act, only drooling over floor plans and recognizing that it's not OK for strangers to needlessly invade other's privacy. Get a life.

chaver, thank you, sort of I guess. I must say, though, when I saw a broker showing an apartment in my former coop, if there was not a client around, I often asked if the broker would mind if I took a look around. So long as the broker had to be there and they were between clients, they always said it was fine. I imagine the brokers correctly figured it could only help since if I didn't want the place, I could chat it up or possibly know someone who did. It also helped give me an idea of my own unit's worth and was a way for brokers to establish relationships with a possible future client (me). So, here, while the interest of buster may have been purely prurient, no harm was likely done. And honestly, it is pretty irresistable to see such special apartments if the opportunity arises. It was an amazing adventure of sorts when I was invited to take a look at Lady Fairfax's apartment in the Pierre's former ballroom many years ago (the one listed for $50MM when she died).

If buster wasted the broker's time by scheduling an appointment to just look around, I take back everything I said. That's not nice to waste someone's time like that. Very disrespectful--particularly for such a professional broker as was representing the penthouses. But I'm sure that isn't what buster did.

From the way buster wrote his thread "even though it's great for comps. I visited as a looky-lou," you know he isn't a serious buyer. Sorry, but a broker has no right to show a property to someone who is just curious.If buster wants to see apartments he can go to open houses. Some white glove buildings don't allow them.

Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (<1 block). I was showed the apartment within a couple of minutes and was interested in renting. The agent was completely unwilling to negotiate the commission, which seemed unreasonable based on the amount of effort put forth in my particular situation (less than 30 minutes of her time - the application was not complicated either and would not have required a board interview, so maybe if you want to include a credit and background check you could say that an hour was spent on the deal). However, there are likely a high number of people that had seen the apartment and the agent needed to, in some form be compensated for that time. I definitely consider that my payment would have not only compensated the agent for the time spent on my rental, but also subsidizing the time spent with other potential tenants. By the way, I ended up choosing another apartment that was cheaper, basically due to not having to pay a commission, so that agent lost out on the deal and then my hours worth of time needed to be subsidized by someone else.

In my second example, I was recently very serious about buying an apartment and was introduced to an agent to show me apartments. I would get emails which were unfiltered runs from the MLS of apartments that fit the basic criteria for my search (neighborhood, size, cost). It was clear that the agent did not spend any effort to comb through the listings, so perhaps you could attribute a couple of minutes to each search (at 3 searches we'll say 15 minutes?). We saw three apartments together, on two separate occasions, and the agent may have expended a couple of hours on that part, including the commute from the UWS to GV. The agent encouraged me to go to solo open houses on Sundays, but make sure to let the seller's agent know that I was represented. When I found an apartment that I was considering bidding for I asked for advice from the agent. The response was along the lines of "an apartment's value is the intersection of what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept". True enough, but it was clear that, again, minimal effort was expended on my behalf to run comps, talk bidding strategy, etc. (maybe credit the agent with an hour or two here). Feeling a bit lost as well as nervous about the market I never made an offer through that agent - although I still think about that apartment regularly and wonder if I am able to get better representation in the case that I do want to pursue the opportunity in the future. However, assuming that I went ahead and devised my own bidding strategy - offering less than asking - and communicated with the seller through the agent we could tack on a couple of hours. Coordinating the board package/interview and closing would take some time, but I don't know how much so I'll say a somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours in order to get to a nice round number of around 10 hours - 2 on locating/showing apartments, 2 on negotiating price, 6 on closing. For a $800k apartment, the agent's commission would equate to approximately $12k (half of 3% paid to buyer's agent), or $1,200 per hour. That seems like a very high salary to me, if again you don't factor in the time spent not closing fee-generating deals. And, there are certainly those agents that will work harder on any particular deal. You could nitpick at my numbers: my search time was abnormally low; I'm underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.

Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.

FOR SOME REASON MY ORIGINAL POST WAS NOT FULLY DISPLAYED:

Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.
I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (<1 block). I was showed the apartment within a couple of minutes and was interested in renting. The agent was completely unwilling to negotiate the commission, which seemed unreasonable based on the amount of effort put forth in my particular situation (less than 30 minutes of her time - the application was not complicated either and would not have required a board interview, so maybe if you want to include a credit and background check you could say that an hour was spent on the deal). However, there are likely a high number of people that had seen the apartment and the agent needed to, in some form be compensated for that time. I definitely consider that my payment would have not only compensated the agent for the time spent on my rental, but also subsidizing the time spent with other potential tenants. By the way, I ended up choosing another apartment that was cheaper, basically due to not having to pay a commission, so that agent lost out on the deal and then my hours worth of time needed to be subsidized by someone else.

In my second example, I was recently very serious about buying an apartment and was introduced to an agent to show me apartments. I would get emails which were unfiltered runs from the MLS of apartments that fit the basic criteria for my search (neighborhood, size, cost). It was clear that the agent did not spend any effort to comb through the listings, so perhaps you could attribute a couple of minutes to each search (at 3 searches we'll say 15 minutes?). We saw three apartments together, on two separate occasions, and the agent may have expended a couple of hours on that part, including the commute from the UWS to GV. The agent encouraged me to go to solo open houses on Sundays, but make sure to let the seller's agent know that I was represented. When I found an apartment that I was considering bidding for I asked for advice from the agent. The response was along the lines of "an apartment's value is the intersection of what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept". True enough, but it was clear that, again, minimal effort was expended on my behalf to run comps, talk bidding strategy, etc. (maybe credit the agent with an hour or two here). Feeling a bit lost as well as nervous about the market I never made an offer through that agent - although I still think about that apartment regularly and wonder if I am able to get better representation in the case that I do want to pursue the opportunity in the future. However, assuming that I went ahead and devised my own bidding strategy - offering less than asking - and communicated with the seller through the agent we could tack on a couple of hours. Coordinating the board package/interview and closing would take some time, but I don't know how much so I'll say a somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours in order to get to a nice round number of around 10 hours - 2 on locating/showing apartments, 2 on negotiating price, 6 on closing. For a $800k apartment, the agent's commission would equate to approximately $12k (half of 3% paid to buyer's agent), or $1,200 per hour. That seems like a very high salary to me, if again you don't factor in the time spent not closing fee-generating deals. And, there are certainly those agents that will work harder on any particular deal. You could nitpick at my numbers: my search time was abnormally low; I'm underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.

Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.

DARN, IT DID IT AGAIN, I WILL POST PARAGRAPH AT A TIME:

Don't you think that is just a part of doing business? I imagine that the pricing structure for real estate agents takes this into consideration. What I mean by that, is that if you took a cost-based approach to evaluating any one apartment purchase/sale, the markup for the expenses and effective hourly rate for the agent's time spent on that deal is quite high. However, brokerages need to recoup money on the spent on deals that never happen and agents need to earn a wage that also takes into consideration that a decent percentage of their time will be spent on deals that never generate a commission.

I don't have a ton of experience with real estate, but I will relate two stories. A couple of years ago when I was looking for a rental I went to a couple of apartments in my desired neighborhood and asked if there were any availabilities. One building said that I would have to speak with its exclusive broker, who was located just a couple of buildings away (<1 block). I was showed the apartment within a couple of minutes and was interested in renting. The agent was completely unwilling to negotiate the commission, which seemed unreasonable based on the amount of effort put forth in my particular situation (less than 30 minutes of her time - the application was not complicated either and would not have required a board interview, so maybe if you want to include a credit and background check you could say that an hour was spent on the deal). However, there are likely a high number of people that had seen the apartment and the agent needed to, in some form be compensated for that time. I definitely consider that my payment would have not only compensated the agent for the time spent on my rental, but also subsidizing the time spent with other potential tenants. By the way, I ended up choosing another apartment that was cheaper, basically due to not having to pay a commission, so that agent lost out on the deal and then my hours worth of time needed to be subsidized by someone else.

In my second example, I was recently very serious about buying an apartment and was introduced to an agent to show me apartments (a member of that brokerages' "Multi-Million Dollar Club", which I assume is some sort of endorsement of success, although it would be difficult to be an agent here and not do more than $1mm in business). I would get emails which were unfiltered runs from the MLS of apartments that fit the basic criteria for my search (neighborhood, size, cost). It was clear that the agent did not spend any effort to comb through the listings, so perhaps you could attribute a couple of minutes to each search (at 3 searches we'll say 15 minutes?). We saw three apartments together, on two separate occasions, and the agent may have expended a couple of hours on that part, including the commute from the UWS to GV. The agent encouraged me to go to solo open houses on Sundays, but make sure to let the seller's agent know that I was represented. When I found an apartment that I was considering bidding for I asked for advice from the agent. The response was along the lines of "an apartment's value is the intersection of what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept". True enough, but it was clear that, again, minimal effort was expended on my behalf to run comps, talk bidding strategy, etc. (maybe credit the agent with an hour or two here). Feeling a bit lost as well as nervous about the market I never made an offer through that agent - although I still think about that apartment regularly and wonder if I am able to get better representation in the case that I do want to pursue the opportunity in the future. However, assuming that I went ahead and devised my own bidding strategy - offering less than asking - and communicated with the seller through the agent we could tack on a couple of hours. Coordinating the board package/interview and closing would take some time, but I don't know how much so I'll say a somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours in order to get to a nice round number of around 10 hours - 2 on locating/showing apartments, 2 on negotiating price, 6 on closing. For a $800k apartment, the agent's commission would equate to approximately $12k (half of 3% paid to buyer's agent), or $1,200 per hour. That seems like a very high salary to me, if again you don't factor in the time spent not closing fee-generating deals. And, there are certainly those agents that will work harder on any particular deal. You could nitpick at my numbers: my search time was abnormally low; I'm underestimating spent on negotiations/closing. However, I would offer a counterpoint that this is a very scalable business and the time spent buying/selling more expensive apartments is not necessarily in proportion to the cost of those dwellings. So, again, the actual buyers and sellers of real estate subsidize the time spent by their agents on other deals.

Finally, I would just like to point out that this is not unique to the real estate industry, either. There are plenty of other businesses that need to charge clients extra in order to make up for the marketing expenses that never convert into actual sales.

SORRY ABOUT THE MULTIPLE POSTINGS, PERHAPS STREETEASY SHOULD LET POSTERS RETRACT THEIR MESSAGES

Thanks for the defense, Kylewest - you are basically right, and I def did not waste the broker's time (and mine) actually making an appointment. JAR handles a large % of sales in 40 Fifth as well as a number of white glove buildings in the area. Resident curiosity is really common, and it never hurts a broker (esp at an ultra high end boutique firm) to maintain relationships with past clients. May not be interested in the PH (esp with the ugs renos), but it's helpful to catch up, compare vs my apt, and discuss current ppsf. FYI, it was not sold, but rented.

jasper, what are you talking about? what are you responding to in this thread? I couldn't follow any of what you said in terms of where it fits into what is being discussed.

The discussion turned to complaining about people wasting the time of brokers and I am trying to point out that brokers take that into consideration when setting their commissions.

Why didn't you just say so? I agree in part, but that doesn't make it okay. It's as if to say that Macy's builds shrinkage (shoplifting) costs into the price of their clothes so it is okay to steal.

So calling a broker to just kill time looking at things isn't very nice. But again, if the broker knows your position and is willing, or is there anyway, I don't see it as an ethical problem or anything else to take a look.

Not sure that is a fair parallel. Although perhaps it's accurate in that buster was attacked as if he were some sort of criminal, which is ridiculous.

As you said in your own post, there is a bit of serendipity in this industry. So even if some one classifies themselves as a 'looky-lou' you never know what could come of them seeing the apartment. Perhaps they have a friend that they refer to the seller or, less likely, win the lottery and decide they can afford to buy the apartment. All it takes is one buyer and I think it's fair to expect an agent to run down a lot of leads that will be nothing but dead ends - they are getting paid to do so.

Point taken. I tend to make analogies that can border on the absurd and that can be infuriating.

It was chaver's comments that I was really addressing.

What about the seller? Isn't their time being wasted by looky-lookers? They have to put away everything, make sure the apartment is cleaned, etc. Then they have to leave the premises for the showing. Sounds as though buster may live in the bldg being discussed. If so, why isn't he upfront and ask his neighbor if he can see the property. It's also in really bad taste to publicly describe an apartment in the negative terms he did. Just because it didn't fit his needs doesn't mean it isn't a beautiful apartment.

chaver

kylewest - I think jasper might have been drunk when writing the posts. Just a (drunk) opinion.

Chaver, without getting into specifics, none of that was an issue so there was no inconvenience to the selling party - trust me. It probably was in poor taste to describe the apartment as ugly, but it's just my opinion. You might find it to be beautiful, especially if you like ugly renovations.

Back to the subject of the thread....I have an apartment for sale at 24 Fifth. One-bedroom, southern exposure, hardwood floors, 9-foot beamed ceilings, small kitchen, classic bath. It's a great apartment! I lived there for a number of years before moving upstate, loved it. The building has been upgraded and looks really good. Storage lockers and bike room in basement, new health club, 24-hour doorman, and the new superintendent, Robert, is a class act. If interested, contact David Feldman at Citi-habitats.

looks like a nice apartment in an amazing location and a nice building (not my favorite, but not bad at all). the kitchen is a problem, obviously; it's basically an apartment for someone who doesn't cook. that's not necessarily so bad for your prospects given that a lot of young people in the city don't cook, but it's still a concern. how is the condition of the apartment--are the ktichen and baths updated and in good shape? or does 'classic bath' mean that it has to be renovated?

you should also list the comp, since you are offering your place at 11% off the same line comp.

If it is such an amazing building in an amazing location, how come there are so many studios available for rent for $2000 or LESS? That's pretty cheap for such a prime area...

heji,

it's not an amazing building. it's a nice enough building. but i don't think we can really debate that the location is amazing. the building is located at 5th avenue and 9th street. small studios for rent for under $2000 is not that shocking.

I may be wrong, but aren't there a ton of sponsor rentals in this building?

It's a former hotel and the layouts reflect that--kitchen sort of an afterthought, some very hotel-like room layouts as if two hotel rooms were joined with a bath converted to a tiny kitchen. Outside of building in desperate need of some sandblasting and refinishing--lots of peeling paint. New entry areas look tasteful and luxe. Location is A-1. I thing 30 5th to its north is stellar in comparison, and rentals at 20 Fifth across 9th St to the sourth are superior to anything for rent in 24 Fifth, but all-in-all, you still get to be in the 'hood in an okay prewar with this building. Have no idea what their financials are like.

If you are planning on financing you'll have a tough time, if, as the comments suggest the majority of the building is rental. Usually they like to see 55% owners.

happyrenter - the bath, with subway tiles, pedestal sink, deep tub is in fine shape but it is not a new renovation. Neither is the kitchen...however I am a cook and have made many many fine meals there (you learn to deal with the size). Kitchen is not the salient point here, as you noted. The location is one of the best in the city. The apartment is sunny with a view of the village. It is a great place to live. To the folks murmuring about the studio apartments: there are a lot of them because of the original design of the building as a hotel. There are probably more studios in 24 Fifth than in other buildings, but I do not know that for certain. As for the ratio, I believe sponsor/owners is closer to 50/50 but again I'm not certain. Sublet policy recently tightened to discourage turnover. I have noticed that lots of people like the building and most apartments move pretty quickly. Liv Tyler used to live there, I have met other celebs in the elevator, fashion models come and go, and yes, there are unusual renters still there, and to me, as a native New Yorker, they give the place color. Everyone is pretty nice. Thanks for all the replies.

The co-op leases the land from the landowner (Brodsky interests.)

Lease goes from 1987-2087. Memorandum of the lease, not the lease itself, is at http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=FT_1590000232159

Who told you it WASN'T a Land Lease Coop?

I am shopping with a buyer in 24 Fifth and the selling brokers (3 different firms) disclosed that there was a land-lease.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

Ali, what do you think of the building? I've owned a studio there for years and love the place, especially with the new gym and restored lobby but am curious as to what others' thoughts are.

Is there a list of land lease buildings in Manhattan anywhere?

bram, I didn't realize you were an owner there -- are you hearing any noise? I put a renter in there and she's hearing some construction noise in the mornings, and we're trying to figure out whether it's the renovation of one of the brownstones on 10th Street.

I like the building a lot (or I wouldn't be bringing a buyer there) although I do realize that when it comes time to sell, you're in a big building so you better have the cheapest price or the best light or both.

Love the area, think the lobby needs a little more furniture, realize the building has had some historical leak incidents, but thumbs up.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

Hi, Ali--

I am an owner but have not been living there for the past 4 years, so don't know anything about the noise... how irritating. As for the light, etc - you're right. The units that face inward can be very dark and depressing, especially the tiny studios.

Glad to hear the positive opinion - I've been considering selling at some point down the road and am happy to hear there's buyer interest in the building.

Well, bram, when you sell, I'd love to talk to you .. would also encourage you to talk to Ken Barkoff, a small local broker who works a lot in the building..I had Ken on the other side of my rental deal and found him very easy to deal with.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Location is great. Building looks a tad like an aging dowager from the outside. Exterior not really kept up terribly well. New lobby was much needed. Some rather contrived layouts since this was a hotel originally. Personally I find the number of renters there a turn off in terms of whether to buy a coop in the building. And the interior apartments have dreadful views, but at least the higher ones get decent light. Overall, great (the best) location, but bit of a pre-war stepchild among the other prewars on the lower Fifth 'gold coast.'

I've sold in the building (last time was celebrity client I had to hand hold because he was referred to me by someone I can't say no to anything..... but he was actually a really nice guy). As KW points out, it still suffers from being born a hotel, and unlike 1 Fifth, wasn't gut renovated into large apartment, but kept as a lot of efficiencies (bet most of you haven't ever heard that one used; lay it on your broker and see if they know what you're talking about) with the occasional odd spectacle thrown in: 2 great examples:

If you watched late night TV about 20 years ago, Carlton Sheets was on seemingly every channel every night with infomercials for buying his "No money down Real Estate class" like Tom Vu/Dean Graziosi (how do you guys feel about the rumor that Dean is a female to male transsexual?)and others you have seen more recently. Carlton has a REALLY nice apartment (considering the building) on like the 10th floor with a terrace running the length of the apartment and with really nice South views because it was far enough West in the building to clear West of 20 Fifth.

The second example is ANOTHER late nite TV pitchman, the guy on 1-800-LAWYERS (who I'm told basically never really had to work another day in his life after figuring out the idea and getting the phone number) Bruce Davis. I still see him around the neighborhood all the time, but I don't know where he lives now. In 24 Fifth, he had a penthouse unit with a menagerie in it: when I saw it there was a pair of magpies, a couple of turtles ...... and I don't remember what else except for the HUGE Mastiff and the Pot Bellied Pig. Although the unit came with a 3000sf ( supposedly) terrace, I don't remember there being ANYTHING on the terrace (furniture, planters,etc). It might have been the newly listed PH1701 because it did look like that and the listing boast "This is the first time PH 1701 has been offered for sale in nearly 20 years." which would be around the right time frame from my memory.

I wonder how many other infomercial folks have graced 24 Fifth?

He owns a townhouse on 10th btwn 5th and 6th, a slight bit closer to 5th, on the north side of the street.

Example Gold Coast townhouse full floor rental listing
http://www.avianvillagerealty.com/west-11th-st-top-fl-garrett-3700-rented/

REO, forget the infomercial guys... The gorgeous movie star daughter of a certain rock legend 'Liv'ed there for a while, and a famous writer and her NYCB dancer husband still do - word on the street is she based her recent novel on the building. Then there's the movie director who keeps a steady stream of model/starlet types traipsing in and out for 'go-sees'... Interesting, odd-ball place, is 24 5th.

Ali, thanks for the suggestions, by the way.

"REO, forget the infomercial guys... The gorgeous movie star daughter of a certain rock legend 'Liv'ed there for a while,"

"I've sold in the building (last time was celebrity client I had to hand hold because he was referred to me by someone I can't say no to anything..... but he was actually a really nice guy)."

It was actually her bass player hubby's apartment. She had an apartment a few blocks away on ?Gay? street which he moved into. I used to love calling over to tell him something and he wasn't home and she picked up "Ok, I'm so sorry baby, he's not home". But we see her around the neighborhood all the time for years.

""It was actually her bass player hubby's apartment. She had an apartment a few blocks away""

That makes sense. Well either way, I was extremely impressed and rather taken aback to see that she actually did the laundry herself. Seemed very unassuming and cool.

"Seemed very unassuming and cool."

VERY. Doesn't know my wife from Adam (?Eve?) but seems they are always bumping into each other and having conversations in some local store.

any one tell me what is the rental policy of the building, can i purchase and rent it out right away.
thanks

Really like the way this place runs. Amazing location, gracious, charming building, lovely staff and residents, beautiful new gym, great value!

I've noticed a drastic uptick in units for sale in this building, which is notable considering the dearth of inventory currently in the Village. What's going on? Any insider intel?

the sublet policy changed and is now much more restrictive. those that held units as investment properties are now selling

The sublet policy actually changed several years ago to its current 3 out of 5 year policy. I'm not aware of any more recent restrictions being put into place. It is possible the upcoming ground lease reset (2017) plus a hotter market is prompting sideline sellers to jump in. The reset happens every 10 years, if I remember correctly, and Brodsky is a benevolent dictator so most residents don't freak out over it but it may be enough to prompt those wishing to exit to start listing in now.

I looked at several units in this building when I was attempting to move here. I found the studios ridiculously small, and the door placements were such that furniture placement was impossible. I thought they would be great for college students who had no money or furniture -- so who cares, right? Also, I was told by a former resident that the walls are paper thin and you can hear people farting in the next apartment. No, I don't think so.

Simply disagree! Next door neighbors have a dog, but only know about it because of seeing them with him in the hall. Peacefully living the dream in beautiful apartment and wonderful building. Can't imagine anything better!

Recently reviewed the land lease...land rent resets in 2018 and every 10 years thereafter, basically for 10% of the land value. Also, didn't see any provision for allowing the building to buy the property, and in 2087 everything goes back to the landowner. Seems very risky to me...maintenance will be sure to rise, and each year that passes means one less year to go until expiry.

Land lease payments only comprise 10% of maintenance fees. There are caps on how much they can rise when adjusted. You can start worrying about the expiration of the land lease 60 years from now, or more. Until then, great location, quality of life, and value.

I'm about to buy a studio in this building and i thought the land lease was up in 2087 (or something like that). can someone please explain what the ground lease reset means for owners? is it possible the building could purchase the land? is it a bad move to buy in this bldg??

Again, seems way too risky…IMO prices do not reflect a sufficient discount for the lack of land ownership, which comprises a major portion of a normal co-op's value in Manhattan. As to "iknow", I think you don't know…prove that there are caps on how much the land rent can rise. Last time in 2008 it jumped by 60%, and with the surge in values recently I expect a bigger jump in 2018. And to correct your facts: the land lease payments are NOT currently 10% of the maintenance..they are 10% of the total building budget, which includes projected rent from the commercial spaces that have been vacant. Most troubling is the fact that every realtor I've spoken to with a listing in this building just plays dumb when it comes to giving out details of the last lease. Caveat Emptor.

While it is possible that village_buyer knows more about the land lease than the experienced real estate attorney who advised us on our purchase or that we misunderstood his advice, I can say without hesitation that the location, location, location of this building is superb, as are the people who make up the staff, the amenities, the neighbors, our unit, and our quality of life in it, and the purchase price was hundreds of thousands of dollars less than the cost of an almost but not quite comparable apartment in another building on the same block. Our principal and interest payments plus maintenance fees equals a sum thousands of dollars less than renting in the building. We are thrilled with our purchase, and enjoying every single day there. Happy holidays!

Why does everyone rave and pee their pants whilst talking about 40 Fifth Avenue? If it's so fabulous, whey is there such a high turnover in the last two years.

Also, the layouts are bad in that in almost every one, one has to go through the bedroom to get to the bathroom. Somehow, I find that really tacky: the great pre-war architects (especially Emery Roth) would never allow that to happen, especially in a big, family type apartment.

I guess one could pee in the maid's room, but what if she is in there asleep on her cot?????????????