303 East 33 St.

I didn't know about this. What is the cross? I would say there are a lot of new developments in that area and with the Charleston selling units at $1000/sq ft at 34th btwn 3rd and 2nd that $1,200 looks a bit rich.

hi. i just went to a "sales" event today at 303e33. they said they are not going to full public sales until january but if we put a bid today, we could get a 5-10% cut as a sales incentive. they were asking $885,000 for a 779 aqft 1BR. i think, given the economic situation in nyc/world, even with the incentive, the price is too high. plus, there are 120 units and they have only "sold" 6 since september. they don't seem too willing to negotiate the price lower. is there something about the real estate market that i should know? is there a huge amount of interest in this building? just wondering...

It's at 2nd Avenue, bt 1st and 2nd.

Also, make sure you take a look at 110 Third Avenue (at about 13th street). Really, go, take a look. Then go on wirednewyork and see if you can find the post that shows the rendering presented by Toll Brothers during marketing.

we are looking at this building, but ultimately I see a new development as too risky of an investment at this time. What if you can't get secure mortgage when the building is complete (Although, Toll seems to have its own mortgage company)? What if they dont sell any units and decide to go rental? What if the quality is subpar? It seems the NYC market is lagging the country in terms of depreciation, and even more new condos seem to be priced according to the market as it existed last year. What if your apartment is worth $100k less than you paid before you even move in!

And lastly, there is the question of space. New buildings are beautiful, but considering you can get 2x the space in a non-new building for the same price presents another decision point into the equation.

As a fellow poster wrote: "Why bid now while sellers are transacting, why not wait until they are crying?"

watchin - I would stay away from this one, at least for now. Too far from completion for my stomach. What is it about the bldg that you like? Perhaps I could advise of another one that I think is "safer"

With Toll Brothers earnings getting worse... when do you think Toll may just firesale this development out?

Look at the bloodbath Toll created on their Williamsburg development

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/02/05/curbed_pricechopper_northside_piers_flirts_with_a_firesale.php

If you would like to pay $1.375mm for a 2 bedroom on the outskirts of Murray Hill please proceed directly to east 33rd and 2nd avenue and wait in the line which is forming.

Anyone know what kind of buying incentives they are having now? I know they are advertising a new offering plan, but what is it??

This is a Toll Brothers project done in conjunction with Kibel Companies. I have lived in the Kibel building next door (300 east 34th street) for almost 5 years and they have been building this/breaking ground/removing the old buildings etc... for the past 3+ years (I have lived through all the noise and construction which continues to this day). I can't fathom why anyone would want to live in this building as it does not look very attractive thus far with the brick exterior (I can see the north side from my window - it looks like the building is going to match the 300 east 34th street 70's brick style unless they are putting something else on top of the brick). Also the building in not as tall as the others in the area (mine is 36 floors) and looks like most of apts wont get much sunlight. There are no views to speak of ...if the building was taller and your apt was facing East you could see the river (we have a partial view from our apartment). Just an FYI as my building is owned by Kibel (rental) there are several apts in the 300 east 34th street building that have been sitting vacant for months (I haven't had a next door neighbor for almost 4 months).

I have walked by the sales office many time on my way to the gym (NYSC is in the 300 east 34th street building) and always wondered what the going rate was the apts in 303 - can't believe they are so pricey.

Troubled developer in a less than prime neighborhood. I think it's a good time to buy but take your $$$ elsewhere.

The price seems a little rich but what would concern me more is buying something that is not completed. Too many things can go wrong and or change. There are lots of "new" developments that are further along so at least you know what you are getting. Just my thoughts, best in your search!!!!

I agree with missyrob--buying in this building this early before completion is too risky. I assume most of the people going to the show room would agree as don't seem to be able to sell/contract out any apartments yet

it seems like there are 2 units in contract.. i wonder how much it went for.

Matrix,

I live in the exact same building. Off topic, but on your most recent rent renewal were you able to negotiate down or do you think you'll try soon. I resigned in October but didn't.

Boss 77 - we were able to negotiate our rent down around $200 but opted to move to a much larger unit and negotiate that rent down around $400

New development lowering prices during construction. By 33, yes that's 33%

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/355093-condo-303-east-33rd-street-kips-bay-new-york

Tool Brothers

The building is sandwiched between two huge buildings to the north and south of it. I would stay away as I think it's grossly overpriced.

and murray hill is snoozeville.

how much leverage do you think one has with this building? how much should i offer off the listing price. i dont mind the location and look the unit layouts.

This building already looks like a rental. Can't imagine that it will be anything but.

im a first time buyer so excuse my questions....so you think that they won't be able to sell enough units and so will convert into a rental. if a unit is listed at 1.25 i'm trying to figure out what bid to make (if at all!)

what happens if you buy an apt in a building like this and they turn rental? do you lose the down payment and whatever mortgage you've paid?

"Turning rental" means the developer doesn't sell the units. You'd get your deposit back.

I love my Toll Brothers, but we all knew this one was a bad idea... The area is questionale (sorry... I don't mean to offend anyone) because: (1) there are huge low- and mixed-income rental bldgs. in the immediate areas; and (2) the lot's placement isn't ideal, in that it is sort of buried in a sea of ugly and big bldgs. The $1,200 pf pricing is a bit ambitious for the area and for the finishes I saw in the model unit.

The sales guy was SOOOOOOOOO nice, so I'd hate to do this to him, but I personally saw absolutely no redeeming qualities in this bldg.--at any price... There. I said it. I usually don't like to be so unequivocal about anything, but I just don't know what they were thinking... Sorry...

I appreciate your opinion but completely disagree with your comments. I lived in this area for a while and absolutely love it. It is close to everything and filled with good restaurants and shops. I just decided to buy in this building and am looking forward to living there. The building is filled with amenities and floorplans/space is very appealing. I recommend buying in this building.

i love this building just bought one unit last week.

the area is amazing close to restaurants, shops, farms mkt and movie theater.

i have been living in the are for the last 4 years, it is very safe as well.

i recommend buying! especially now that it is a good time to buy with the prices lower.

how many toll brothers brokers are in this thread? Jeez. I lived in a rental on 34th for a while so I know the area and if you actually are a purchaser and you're happy, then Godspeed. However, this building is still WAY overpriced and I haven't seen any comp sales of units that reflect the current environment. Get real Toll, this is in Kip's Bay, on a desolate street, next to all of hospitals on 1st avenue.

they recently raised prices on a few of the units...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/440112-condo-303-east-33rd-street-kips-bay-new-york

raised by $300K.

that's a proven strategy. just ask the brokers at the tempo.

Be careful when buying from looking at the floorplans - in the old days, room sizes (eg bedrooms) didn't include closets- here, they definitely do,and sometimes hallways as well. And once you realize that the rooms are small (like the master bedroom that is actually smaller than the second bedroom, though the floorplan says its 4 ft. longer). Have a feeling you'll be surprised walking into the finished product, as many buyers did in the last few years buying pre-completion.

I am not a Toll brothers rep. You are all entitled to your opinion but I bought in this building and they were very fair and willing to negotiate. I bought pre-construction at another building in this area 2 years ago and everything worked out exactly as planned so buying from a floor plan is not bad at all and definitely the way to go if you're looking to get a brand new place for slightly cheaper than when it opens. I am confident this building will be the same experience I had in the past and be a beautiful building to live in. I encourage anyone to buy in this building! Now is the time to buy and I was interested in the Tempo and went there numerous times to look and they were NOT flexible one bit. The reps here at 303 are flexible and extremely fair.

what % discounts are they giving?

They are having a "pre-sale" that differs from the prices listed on this website and they are slightly negotiable. I suggest going to check it out and talk to them if you're seriously interested. Don't just go by what street easy says.

gmafb.

Jerkstore, does gmafb stand for "Give Me A F***ing Break???" That's not nice!

As I said in another thread, let us not forget that, for the market to recover, we need these developments to do well. So, in that sense, this bldg. has my support. Sure, it's grossly over-priced as advertised, but ny31 says they are open to lower offers.

I like the eco-friendly zen concept. It has parking in the basement, too, don't forget! Most important of all, the sales guy--a big old queen--was so nice, and I want him to be happy.

any one know what percent off asking they are going for?

when i bought mine they were very flexible, it is a good expericence and they are selling more and more units......i love the building, it is a modern and clean style. so it is worth to go there and check.

the prices that are listed here are negociable!

well, it is the national Toll Bros. sales event. ending October 4th, i believe, so speed on over.

Tree O'Tree East Toidy-toid lowuhed its prices by toidy-tree puysent? And so close to the best intuhsection in awl of Da City: Toidy-toid and Toid!

I wouldn't be suhproized if a toid unit was in contract!

what are some of these "very felxible" discounts? anyone in contract want to share?

To Buy vs Not To Buy
1. Buying a 779 sqft 1 Br for $885,000, assuming a cost of capital of 6% (approx $5200/mo) for 30 year mortgage, plus Taxes ($400/Mo) and Maintenance ($900/Mo) gives you an approximate economic cost of ownership of $6500/Mo - for a 1 Br. apt. Considering the tax-deductibility of interest and taxes you get a approximate net cost of ownership of $5200/Mo;
2. Renting the same apt. would cost approximately $3000/Mo
3. The long-term cost of ownership of any real-estate property should be approximately equal to the long-term cost of renting it;

Conclusion:
1. This apt. is overpriced by approximately 57% - it should sell for no more than $510,000;
2. The apt also has a negative Cap rate (is a poor investment) if you are an investor;
3. Remember 1990-1994 back then, Manhattan apt with a positive Cap rate were plenty (2Brs for $200k range, and 1Brs in the 120k range that could have easily been rented for a profit, despite stringent mortgage requirements and higher interest rates than today;

The numbers used in the math above is inaccurate and it is also based on many assumptions. It is merely an opinion, which we are all entitled to; however, I am not sure it helps people seriously interested in buying in this building. If there are serious buyers interested on this discussion thread...I encourage you to go and check out the building and pricing out for yourself.

I agree with dardeleano. Way too overpriced. One must always seek an equilibrium between renting and purchasing (assuming a reasonable downpayment, cost of capital assumptions, etc.) Whether ny31 realizes or not ALL people will ulimately do some sort of "rent" vs "purchase" assemssment -- even if it not so formal. For the record, I have had terrible experience with Toll Brother's quality in the past. I have lots of friends in Pennslyvania that have also had a terrible experience with them.

Dardelano .. According to your Quick Math, the unit is 57% overpriced. Why dont you email us all listings for New Dev. 1 bedrooms same size priced at $510,000 IN MANHATTAN? (and not harlem)
Also, FYI the building has low Maintenance and 421-a tax abatement. I know bc i purchased there!So get your facts straight!

Anybody have any insight on what type of discounts they are offering?

dardeleano: Your math and logic is faulty

1. Your price conclusion has no basis in any usual real estate valuation metric. Dividing your guess at rent by your calculation of financed carry cost for an owner has no bearing on "value."

2. do not include financing in your cap rate calculation. Everyone's financing is different. Cap rate is net operating income/sales price. I get a 2.3% cap rate using your rental number and cc/taxes and ask price. I'm not judging your rental guess, just using it to calculate the actual cap rate. The cap rate might be low but it is no negative.

And using purely a cap rate to assess whether something is a good investment is like using dividend yield for equities. Perhaps that stock currently has a 17% dividend and another has a 3% dividend but only a moron would use that as the sole basis to determine which is the better investment. Like everything else, a cap rate is just one metric used to help assess valuation. It is not the bible metric that answers all questions. And it helps to calculate it correctly.

3. This statement makes no sense. Why should the long-term cost of ownership equal long-term rental. Ownership has appreciation or depreciation (Detroit) and renters don't always use opportunity cost correctly and invest wisely.

Not making any judgments on this building and valuation. But let's keep it real.

This building at 303 E 33 street has since reduced its price the one bedrooms on low floors are approx. 1000 a sf which is correct. As far as comparing it to the Charleston they have actually raised their rates to app 1200 or 1100 a sf. The really nice layouts w wrap terraces are 1400 a sf now. They were 1000 sf in the summer @ I wish they still were its a nice building but too pricey abnd anyway 303 has a swimming pool that makes a big difference to me. It is hard to market the apt building since it is only renderings but I have confidence in Toll Bros they will pull thru the prices have been lowered as have 340 e 23 street. I reccommend a large 2 bedroom 1300 sf for 1250 in htat building. Yhe finishes are great the views nothing to speak of. What about the subway on 2nd ave is it happening or not, I had a client tell me last night nothing on second ave for him he heard the subway is being built did you hear they started it? I did not
audreynnj5@gmail.com Broker of Greenpropertyny check my site for the latest new dev. www.greenpropertyny.com or VALUE PROPERTIES as Auctions Short sales etc Prime Manhattan Maven Always
Greenpropertyny@gmail.com

Discounts? You have to make an offer to get discount info. They were running a special in September to pay closing costs for 4 days but they wil not honor that anymore they could have kepy it longer closing costs are 4 % of the deal. I have a 669 one bed there for 685,000 asking I think that is fair for new hi end construction. Trump sold from a model at 200 riverside Houvanian can do it as well. I have seen better deals
Audrey N www.greenpropertyny.com check out deals onm my site and my auction page w short sales etc

NOT ALL BROKERS R THE SAME!

Just visited the housing office. The model home is beautiful! Do you think it's a better time to buy now? Asking prices have dropped considerably.

BTW,303 does not have a swimming pool. It's jut a reflecting pool.

Also, the future site of the 2nd avenue subway line will be at 34th street and 2nd ave. They are in phase 1 of 4 of the construction. Phase 1 is not set to be completed until 2016. It is not until phase 3 of construction that the 34th street and 2nd ave station will be open. According to the MTA website. So sounds like it will be awhile.

Well, here we go. After one random closing back in March, four sales have hit ACRIS in the last couple of weeks at prices between 1% above and 10% below last ask. I don't know how relevant people think the asking price history is given what the market has been through the last couple of years, but the two that were listed in 2008 before being reduced in 2009/10 ended up closing 26% and 11% below the 2008 ask and 5% below and 1% above the current ask.

Also, we already have a little comp series going, as three of the five closings to date have been in the E line. Looks like the early bird got the worm in this case.

07/27/2010 #6E $722,957
07/21/2010 #7E $743,322
03/12/2010 #8E $684,264

Some buyers were waiting on the Fannie Mae approval the building just got. Financing should be much easier and much more favorable now that they have the approval. The difference in financing options my buyers had made a big difference. sunny.hong@bankofamerica.com

according to Real Deal, 10 units have closed in so far.

i am looking to rent 1bed at 303 east or the charleston from direct owner please contact me asap for oct 1 move in. 1bedroom
ynadiafrance@yahoo.com

So NYU Medical took the commercial space, just what the neighborhood needs, more healthcare.

what commercial space?

the ground floor

Anyone know how many units there are in this building?

is NYU building clinics on the ground floor?

Walshcoop
Don't you see the Nov 1st sale of $8,950,000 for CFA (Commercial Unit)?

If you read the deed page of who bought it (acris block 939 lot 1001), you'll see it's been bought by New York University.
Given the zillion square feet in use by NYU medical in the immediate area, it's safe to assume it's not going to be an NYU visual Arts center.

Sideliner
Looks around 130 units

ts10 - thanks. I found a magazine puff piece that mentions 128 so your 130 was a pretty good estimate.