http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/01/MN9112IJGP.DTL&tsp=1

Bare in mind SF is a very liberal city which could be partly to blame but its probably due also to the economy. God help us if a uber-liberal takes over Bloomberg (in regards to crime crackdown)

I love this quote:

"Nobody wants to admit there's crime here, because it's hard to say, 'I just spent big money to live in a neighborhood with crime problems.' "

Never happen, the NYPD is the best law enforcement agency, in the country.

I never understood why people rave about SF. The place is a godforsaken stankhole and crime has always been a problem, even in the "nicest" neighborhoods. Not to mention you need a winter coat in July.

I have to agree. I used to live there and the homeless problem was worse than in NYC. And nobody seemed to be able to do anything about it. They didn't care either because the homeless mainly stayed in certain areas, which the well-heeled avoided.

I don't know the actual numbers, but it seems to me that SF has the highest number of homeless people between 18 and 25. I'm sure it isn't true for all, but it seemed that a number of them were homeless by choice and actually enjoy living on the street, doing drugs, and begging for your dinner leftovers. It is a very bizarre place.

You can't walk anywhere in SF without encountering patches of sketchiness. And what sucks is the most central and IMO coolest areas to live are overrun with homeless drug addicts. Gavin Newsom has done nothing as far as I can tell to deal w/the issue. Thank God I don't live there any longer!

Bring back Rudy!!!

> Never happen, the NYPD is the best law enforcement agency, in the country.

Are you inferring that this is a new thing?

Because we definitely had some issues in the Dinkins years and before...

nyc10022- This city has always had great police. Its politicians, that tie their hands. This of course would explain the Dinkins era.

Unfortunately, an ongoing downward economic cycle will likely raise crime. I have noticed a tripling of homeless in my neighborhood. People become desperate and angry and crime increases.

manhattanfox...you def should get out of here...you don't have to be a hero anymore...everyone would completely understand your decision since you face such hardships.

its true, tons of homeless in SF..very surprising. Im there once a year for the Inman conference and there are usually around 1-2 homeless per block. Just a weird city all the way around.

rent or buy or do neither?

Parts of Oakland have always been pretty dodgy, so it's not exactly great journalism to extrapolate from there to SF. I'm not sure I like the assumption here that being homeless is wrong or that homeless people are particularly dangerous.

"I'm not sure I like the assumption here that being homeless is wrong or that homeless people are particularly dangerous."

Understand your point zizizi, but SF is definitely a weird animal. There is something bizarre about 22 year olds choosing to be homeless as a "lifestyle". I've been around homeless people all over the world and SF is by far the most aggressive. Toronto has a huge homeless issue as well but I feel much safer than when I’m in SF.

The weather in S.F. is much milder than NYC, no snow, rains a lot in January but other than that not much. If I were homeless I'd rather be in S.F. than in NYC.

Currently there's a wave of restaurant and nail salon robberies in Oakland and Berkeley. I hear reports every week. Just checked the Oakland PD's web site, and within a mile radius of where a friend lives in the Glenview neighborhood of Oakland, there have been at least 17 robberies in the past 90 days. Quite shocking to see all the criminal activity within the mile radius in the past 90 days on a map -- vehicle theft, simple assault, aggravated assault, burglary, etc. http://gismaps.oaklandnet.com/crimewatch/

SF has a long history of compassion and support for homeless rights including generous welfare policies and tolerance for panhandling and camping in parks. The government has tried a myriad of policies, programs and initiatives to attack the problem, some dumb and some truly innovative - check out this one: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/13/MNR110L13S.DTL

Interestingly enough, SF spends more per capita on homelessness than any other city in NA.

JuiceMan -- there are a couple of small communities like that still living in the East Village, but I think we agree there's a huge difference between how this is treated in SF and in nyc, where homelessness has been practically criminalized.

The point to understand is that by large, violent crimes are likely to be carried out by young men (in particular, young drug addicts who may often be homeless), not by the homeless as such.

Valldejuli is right about the weather factor, and in fact many Cali cities have the same kind of young runaway-youth culture -- but SF also is walkable and has mass transit. And still has that lingering Flower Child reputation. "Homeless" is an umbrella term and the ones there are very different from the mentally ill homeless that we're used to in NY.

In both cases, though, I think there's very little crime committed by homeless people, other than victimless crimes and aesthetic offenses.

As for crime in general, manhattanfox is right -- a bad economy, or even the psychological effect of a popular feeling that the economy is bad, will result in crime increases. I think it's even worse in inflationary times than recessions, especially when food prices spike.

I agree that the homeless are not necessarily dangerous. I meant to say that an increase in homeless reflects tougher times - and desperate acts of some. SteveF - your comment to me is idiotic. The world is better off without people like you commenting --

"The point to understand is that by large, violent crimes are likely to be carried out by young men (in particular, young drug addicts who may often be homeless), not by the homeless as such."

Well said zizizi, I agree.

manhattanfox...hey listen if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen..:)

steveF - again - idiotic comment - and no value-added. I have read some of your other posts -- Apparently you excel at Idiotic. Congratulations.

""Homeless" is an umbrella term "

So true. It came about during the 80's when people/families across the country were actually losing their homes because they lost their jobs. Different than the folks living on the streets, many of whom are mentally ill or junkies kicked out by their families.

SF is a strange place; the idea of getting tough with the homeless doesn't go down well.

The last set of crime stats I saw from the city (about 2-3 months ago) said that serious crimes - murder, rape - were up to the highest in a bit, but the smaller crimes (burglary) which are more numerous generally were down slightly. Not sure where I saw the stat, likely in one of the major papers.

As far as NYC is concerned, I have noticed a much larger and visible homeless/junkie population in Union Sq Park in the early morning. It wasn't nearly as bad last summer and pretty non-existent in winter, and it seems to have died down a little now that school has started but it is something we've all noticed. Lots of punky kids round the George statue and homeless on the benches. They don't seem to bother anyone but there are a whole lot. I did see one kid getting arrested two days ago for what it's worth.

I should add that the kid that was killed in his apt on 15th st the other day was killed by a homeless kid he met at 6am on Sat morning in Un Sq.

manhattanfox...why do you continue to respond to an idiot?? and...if I'm such an idiot why have you read my postS ?? Wouldn't you only want to read just one post from an idiot...face it you want me...

I suspect he doesn't want you.

Nevertheless, there are too many homeless idiot kids around union square with their excessive tatoos and piercings, and pets, and smoking. No one should give them a dime. Let them go to San Fran. Which does not, and will never, be comparable to New York. That isn't a California or West Coast vs. NY or East Coast thing. If you want to tell me you like the Bay Area or San Diego, find.

Send the homeless louses to San Fran, let them play with the cops with that silly Dragnet logo on their cars.

Much-reduced police presence in the East Village. They used to patrol Tompkins Square Park every night before closing. Now it's often closed well after schedule. A few times I've seen it open after 3 or 4am and wondered if it was closed at all. In the past few weeks I've noticed a surprising number of people smoking pot openly in the street. A loud, but good, bebop band was playing in the park near the 9th and A entrance for hours on consecutive Saturday nights recently. I can't believe they weren't shut down (though I enjoyed them). Folks didn't seemed concerned brown-bagging beer as they listened.

Homeless here are way more visible than in recent years, and have been for a little while now. Zizzi's right about the homeless kids, except that a bunch of them look over 30 and there's a squat on Ave C btw 9th and 10th that many of them stay at. They're called Crusties, and fortunately the cops came out to bust a bunch of them and chase them out of the corridor of the park they had taken over (though they just moved to the more secluded area south of the bball courts). They were apparently leaving dirty needles behind every night.

Mostly TSP doesn't close at all, but there is a police car parked in the middle of it most nights.

I don't know why anyone should mind people using the park at night, and if needles are a problem (which I doubt) the police can put a biohazard trashcan there and threaten them into using it. Don't forget that the 1AM closing time is not exactly without controversy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tompkins_Square_Park_Police_Riot_(1988)

As Grandpa Simpson said, "I don't like the look of those teenagers." Let's instate a curfew.

zizizi, don't misunderstand me, I enjoy walking my dog through TSP at 3am. I also loved the bebop band (plus, their gig was meathead and SATC-girl free). The scene while they were playing reminded me of the 90's in a great way. Neither pot smoking nor beer drinking offends me. My only point was to contrast the difference between the current police presence and previous years. TSP (and area) policing have changed considerably. I couldn't care less about those "quality of life" infractions, but I don't want to go back to the era of dealers-on-my-doorstep, and I don't want to see repeats of the murder that happened in the PJs a few blocks from my apt earlier in the year.

Those Crusties, though, are an unsympathetic, self-absorbed lot. After seeing them "bathe" in the drinking fountain, piss against trees instead of walking 50 feet to the restrooms, and stare down people who dare pass through "their" corridor of the park (which they totally foul with their body odor), I doubt they'd be considerate enough to use a biohazard container.

"and if needles are a problem (which I doubt) the police can put a biohazard trashcan there and threaten them into using it."

Maybe we should supply the smack to them as well. Hell, let’s pitch some tents and send the food wagon in just to make sure they are comfortable. zizizi, should we sit them down and have a talk about the impoliteness of pissing in the water fountain?

I like edgy people and neighborhoods; they add color and flavor, just not in my backyard!

Actually, JuiceMan, there is a food wagon, though it isn't only the Crusties that line up for it. It parks on Ave A at the southwest corner of the park. Other times of the week there's a farmer's market there.

buster2056, there have always been plenty of edgy people in the neighborhood. Pissing near where kids are playing, nodding (as in heroin) on the benches in midday and reeking like hell doesn't make you edgy, it just makes you an ass. And panhandling while drinking $2.50 coffee from 9th St. Espresso doesn't help.

"Those Crusties, though, are an unsympathetic, self-absorbed lot."

Much like investment bankers then?

tenemental, maybe you should introduce the meatheads to the Crusties and they can fight for control of TSP. Be careful though, the may bond and you could end up with heroin induced smelly steriod-jacked guys wearing tank tops and gold chains screaming "Yous guys wanno go" outside your window at 2am on a Tuesday night.

TSP is the new WSP. These "homeless" kids from Portland I've noticed have become a bit more aggressive. They are not however without a sense of humor. My favorite was a kid with a sign that read "I'm like Obama. I want change". Priceless.

zizizi, sure, plenty of people fit that description.

JuiceMan, lol. You have the makings of the next Troma Studios release - a meathead is accidentally stuck w/ a Crusty's dirty syringe and morphs into the East Village's new demon spawn, the Crusthead.

Seriously, though, the one upside to the Crusties and homeless is that they may make the neighborhood less appealing to the meatheads and SATC girls, which would be a fair trade off to me.

totallyanonymous, that sign was pretty classic. I was just happy when they started being honest and asking "spare change for beer?"

a woman in her 70s wast attacked on east 83 rd st today from a homeless man who stabbed her. A father of 3 was killed in Jersey city by a schizo 24 year old off his meds following a violent episode by the same kid yesterday.

...and a friend of mine was attacked on E 7th St. some years back and had her jaw broken by a homeless guy who's somehow back on the streets and in the neighborhood again (at least he was for a little while). I've said it before, but should have repeated myself: chasing the meatheads out would be great, but if the tradeoff goes beyond grit to actual danger, it's not worth it.

Just a thought, How has the presence of video security cameras and even cell phone cameras/video impacted crime here?

I was in high school outside of the city pre-Guilianni, so I do not recall how prevalant video security was back then.

I know that since Guilianni the city invested heavily in technology for the NYPD- so much so that I saw an extended video (I think it was in excess of 10 minutes) put out by IBM bragging about how they helped NYC change the way they combat crime via technology.