Nice drop.

http://www.prudentialelliman.com/940347

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/164090-coop-221-west-82nd-street-upper-west-side-manhattan

Sorry

These listings aren't even considered price drop...more like dream bust for some unrealistic sellers.
Who in the right mind would pay $1.3mil for this 2br that needs major renovation. Also keep in mind the maintenance is well over $2000.

Even at the peak of the bubble, this apt was never worth more than a $1mil.

ba29 I agree, the question is then how low? At this price it makes this unit $925 sq ft. At $1M it drops to $715 sq ft. Any thoughts. And who said that LIC was cheaper then Manhattan...

This is exactly why you determine value versus comps, not asking prices. If a seller is smokin', just let the property sit on the market until they come to their senses - especially in this market. The fun is only beginning, boys and girls. Fasten your seatbelts.

dco, can't really go by ppsf comparisons with an apartment that has such exorbitant maintenance. The price on these kinds of apts HAS to be lower that comps with more standard common charges, otherwise, they're obviously overpriced.

bjw2103- How do you know what the mant. includes? What if it covers some utilities?

bjw2103: 14C appears to now be priced substantially below comparable prior sales IN THE SAME BUILDING. So, while the high maintenance is clearly reflected in the relatively low ppsf, dco is probably correct in citing this apartment as an example of downward market movement.

The comparison to LIC, on the other hand, is thoroughly gratuitous. Apples and oranges.

It's so unsavvy of realtors/sellers to make these endless $30K-$50K price drops. A nibble here, a nibble there--it just makes them appear uncertain and makes the property seem less desirable. Besides, why would anyone even consider buying this place today? Tomorrow it could be another $30K less, and next month it might drop yet again!

The maintenance is high, but not absurd for the size. I don't like the layout, but I can imagine a lot of people that may. The area is great. I do think the original asking price was ambitious, but "Even at the peak of the bubble, this apt was never worth more than a $1mil" seems like a gross exaggeration to me.

West81st - what were the comps in the same building you referred to? Thanks.

That seller is smoking crack cocaine. 1.3 for a 1.5 bath apt? IMO a 2bd room isn't a 2 bdroom until it has 2 full baths. The maintenance is toohight and it is a co-op.

Is it really as ineptly marketed as it seems? The listing claims great views, but doesn't even have a picture of them (except from the roof deck).

Agree with LP1. It's a one bath. That kills it.

West81st, thanks - I didn't look at the comps til now, but yes, this would appear to be priced below what other units have sold for in the past year or so. No comps for anything in the same line unfortunately, though they did try to package this unit with the one next door for ~$4m before. dco, it's highly unlikely the maintenance covers ALL utilities (electricity is almost never covered in my experience), but this is still quite high. This is a good location, but it's got a ton of "small" negatives that really add up (maintenance, the slightly suspect "no board approval required" co-op situation, and as others have pointed out, the lack of a full second bath).

Unless I am misreading the sales data, it appears that someone purchased 14CD in February 2008 and they are now trying to seel off this one piece of the combined apartments. Is that accurate? Also, the data lists apartment 11C as over 1600', with this apartment at 1400'. So, while the price is lower, it is also a smaller apartment. Although it is 3 floors higher, it could also be in worse shape than 11C. Thoughts?

Waverly: The joint listing of 14C and D never sold. The price on that one was hallucinatory.

Newbuyer99: As a comp, I was looking at 14E for one - a little tricky to follow on StreetEasy, because the listing and sale are not linked.
Listed at $1.45MM: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/5695-coop-221-west-82nd-street-upper-west-side-new-york
Sold for $1.446MM: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/43753
You can see it's the same apartment from the buyer's new address on the sale record.

BTW, I think the option of a second full bath might be legit. Assuming that's a separate shower stall at the front of the full bath, you'd probably put a wall between the shower and the rest of the room, then add a toilet and a small sink and bump the entry out a bit to create a new (admittedly tight) hall bath. The existing bathroom would become a master bath with the addition of a door to the bedroom.

Not ideal, but I think that's what the listing means by saying a second full bath could be added.

So if understand West81st correctly, the current listing for 14C is $150K below the sale price for 14E in 2006. Square footage is listed the same, not sure on layout (does anyone know?). 14E was listed as having 2 full baths, which I agree commands a premium, but do you guys really think that premium is $150K or more?

Unless I am understanding something wrong, or there are other differences between 14C and 14E, dco's point about this as an example of market softening appears valid.

I saw this apartment earlier this Spring/Summer...

It needs major work (gut). And that 1/2 bath off the kitchen isn't even a 1/2 bath. There is not a sink there, just the toidy. So I guess you come out and wash your hands at the kitchen sink. Ick. The kitchen, by the way is a wreck, with old wood cabinets painted over about a gazillion times.

My notes say that it has good light, but the bedrooms are small and the view is over a church, which I guess would be protected unless the church sells out....

My broker sheet doesn't say whether maintenance includes utilities, but there is a 4x monthly maintenance paid-by-buyer-at-closing flip tax, and a monthly assessment of $168 through December.

Elliman's alternate floorplan (see http://www.prudentialelliman.com/mainsite/popups/ListingFloorplans.aspx?ListingID=940347#) calls for basically the change I envisioned, except they would bump out the bathroom entry much farther so that the hall bath could have a tub, not just a shower. As a consequence, the master loses its main closet and the second BR gives up some floorspace.

That seems a very high price to satisfy the conventional wisdom that a family bathroom requires a tub. Actually, most kids graduate to showers around seven or eight; younger children are generally bathed by an adult, so I don't think it's that big a deal to have the one tub accessible only via the master bedroom. In our family, the little ones usually get their post-bath ablutions on mommy's bed anyway. I suppose some mommies will recoil at this prospect, but it has to be better than a nearly closetless bedroom.

drg: Thanks for the extra color on #14C. I'll give it a look tomorrow.

I think the Church (Holy Trinity) is safe. We have a lot of friends there, and the congregation seems healthy, but you never know.

""I think the Church (Holy Trinity) is safe. We have a lot of friends there, and the congregation seems healthy, but you never know.""

Yeah, but you might have to contend with electronic bells from the church. That can be annoying.

This one is for dco, and other fans of wild price cuts:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/225905-coop-1170-fifth-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

From $7.1MM to $3.9MM in less than five months. I guess Corcoran shot a little high with that initial price.

Hey, you don't get what you don't ask for!!

Wow. Now that's a statement. And it's still listed to high.

holy bajesus...

oof.

dco: With no direct park view and the renovation/duplexing stopped in mid-job, you're probably right.

Let's take a look at this listing, shall we?

AAAUUGH - my eyes, my eyes - I'm blind!!!!

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be painted by men with MFAs. Whose gonna do it? You, Malraux? You, dco? You weep for that listing, and you curse the decor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you WANT the mural on that wall. You NEED the mural on that wall. We use words like fresco, mural, tempera, We use these words as the backbone of a life spent decorating something. You use them as a punchline. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a brush, and stand to paint. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

"WHO's gonna do it", that is. Serves me right for pasting from a movie quotes site.

West 81st:

Most excellent quote, nonetheless!!!

The listing that was the original subject of this (since-hijacked) thread was just reduced again, though probably not by anywhere near enough.
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/940347

The irony is if they would have been reasonable and put this on the market at current ask in January they would have had a buyer around 1.2 within a couple weeks. Now they are chasing the falling market with a stale listing. It really baffles. Ultimately the market decides. And buyers are more educated than ever. If they had asked 995k in January there would have been a bidding war and they would have a contract for around $1.2 million. Now, everyone is scared shitless to be that person that bought at the top even when the writing was on the wall. If they were smart they would drop it to 999k, people would feel they were getting a discount, and it would sell quickly for 1.100k. Then they could take that money and lose it in the stock market.

The irony is if they would have been reasonable and put this on the market at current ask in January they would have had a buyer around 1.2 within a couple weeks. Now they are chasing the falling market with a stale listing. It really baffles. Ultimately the market decides. And buyers are more educated than ever. If they had asked 995k in January there would have been a bidding war and they would have a contract for around $1.2 million. Now, everyone is scared shitless to be that person that bought at the top even when the writing was on the wall. If they were smart they would drop it to 999k, people would feel they were getting a discount, and it would sell quickly for 1.100k. Then they could take that money and lose it in the stock market.

Another thought: a maintenance over $2000 is only going to hurt the listing more as a recession becomes more pronounced.

kgg: Good point. Properties with high monthlies seem especially vulnerable. Here's another example:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=993607&rentalperiod=&SearchType=newestproperties&Region=NYC

just reduced to $1.695MM; it was listed in June at $2.575MM. That was a crazy price, but the monthlies of close to $3200 aren't helping either.

Streeteasy still shows a price of $1.8MM for the moment:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/290759-condo-62-west-62nd-street-lincoln-square-new-york

KGG-agree completely. It baffles me that NYC is full of brokers like these that basically pull listing prices out of their asses and hope for the best. Maybe they should have actually checked some comps in the building to ascertain a reasonable value.

Agreed. But isn't that how this bubble happened. Prices getting pulled from asses are suddenly met not with disbelief but with chum in the water ferocity from buyers bolstered by leverage and motivated by the fear of being priced out forever. And new more outrageous prices were thrown out there. And they too were swallowed hook line and sinker. Even those with reasonable asking prices were given more than they asked by competing bidders. And in no time you couldn't rembember what reasonable was. So you can't really blame those who were caught going to market when the fever broke. It had become the norm. And I think that soon the reverse will happen where new listings will start underbidding the overpriced ones that have been sitting on the market. That's what I would do if I was selling. The goal of sell higher, higher, higher will soon be replaced with sell faster, faster, faster. And that's when things crash.

re: kgg: "And in no time you couldn't rembember what reasonable was."

Well put, kgg.

I was hoping for compliments on my sophomoric aquatic metaphors...but thanks anotherguy.
I remember walking out of the first listing I saw in a huff of disbelief and anger and 6 months later was considering a comp in the same building. Decided to wait.

221 West 82nd #14C is back on the market, and has broken the $1MM mark:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=940347

Kgg called it. In fairness, so did the listing brokers, who knew six months ago that the dog had fleas; but the sellers didn't want to hear it.

I note that the maintenance on this pooch has increased another 10% since the prior listing.

the drop on this apartment is pretty stunning--absolutely perfect location, nice views, nice apartment. not spacious, but not bad at all with one kid.

good light... needs new kitchen, additional bath, general reno... probably 300K+ id offer no more than 600000
good luck to uws dreamers

And the final score is: ten price cuts, three or four de-listings, and a 46% drop from the original ask.
01/04/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $1,767,000.
01/22/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,682,000.
02/25/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,595,000.
03/04/2008 Price decreased by 6% to $1,495,000.
03/31/2008 Price decreased by 5% to $1,425,000.
04/04/2008 Listing is no longer available.
04/11/2008 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
04/24/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,375,000.
05/13/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,325,000.
08/08/2008 Delisted temporarily.
09/02/2008 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
09/02/2008 Price decreased by 2% to $1,295,000.
10/08/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,239,500.
10/14/2008 Price decreased by 4% to $1,195,000.
12/15/2008 Delisted temporarily.
02/03/2009 Re-listed by Prudential Elliman.
02/03/2009 Price decreased by 17% to $995,000.
02/19/2009 Listing is no longer available.
04/09/2009 Listing entered contract.
07/07/2009 Sale recorded for $947,500.

new aquatic metaphor: AMPHIBIOUS BULLS

def. male cattle that have been forced to evolve such that they can exist for limited time underwater, that continue with the "buy now or be priced out forever" routine, that are running out of air

Thanks for digging this up, West. This baby took quite a while to sell, but man was that original ask insane or what? I still think the eventual buyer paid too much for something that doesn't even have 2 full baths and has such high maintenance, but they probably feel like they got a decent deal.