Tribeca,Soho,West village

You're being way too general. To give a good psf estimate, even though you've given us a particular area(s), we'd have to know the specific unit. Too many small details can have a great effect on pricing.

Cyber doorman is a great choice for buildings who have less than 20 (or so) units. It keeps the cc's down, but provides all the basic services a regular doorman would such as screening people at the door, and accepting packages, deliveries, dry cleaning, fresh direct, etc.

Your suggestion that 'most apartments don't have great views,' particularly in the Village, is pretty stupid, as far as I'm concerned. It's one of the most charming places in the city, and because there aren't as many tall building, there are many more units that view open sky.

Sorry ,that I appear stupid ,but I will be more specific .I have been looking at units on Leonard,worthand walker.Saw some very nice units,particualrly one on the 3rd floor but the view was of a run down building that does not block the light.As far as charming ,there is no argument,that is why we have stopped looking at the upper east side.We are targeting more the tribeca area.Thankyou for your help

malraux,do you know of any around leonard and walker in tribeca?

michele:

Hi. Sorry about the tone of my post - I apologize - hadn't had my coffee - please forgive me.

It would also be helpful, if you would be willing, to provide an approximate price range? That would be a BIG assist....

michele.

How many bedrooms are you looking for? Larger units generally cost more per sf though that difference may narrow.

I think a cyber doorman is better than no doorman but not as good as a real doorman. When you drive up with luggage or shopping bags and it is raining, they are not going to send a robot out front to unload you car and take your stuff upstairs.

modern and malraux thanks for your comments,I am looking at 2 bedrooms aroung 1600-1700 sqfeet.Around walker or leaonard would be gret.In the small buildings which many are ,a ciber door man seems a good idea.Should I wait longer to buy ,will this area get as low as 850psf?

If you can wait, you will save a lot of money. Even 6 months from now you will liekly get to pay 10-20% less than current prices so you will save $100k or more in that price range and size. $850 psf sounds doable now, but I bet lower if you wait.

Here is an $825 psf right now (seller filed bankruptcy) on Thomas St.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367653-coop-86-thomas-street-tribeca-new-york

I think many Tribeca lofts are too small to support a doorman. Here is one with a doorman for $791 psf:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/181645-condo-28-vestry-street-tribeca-new-york

Though that layout looks awful, no master bathroom, in fact no bedroom with its own bath at all.

ps: the west village and soho are generally more expensive than tribeca, so it will likely take more time to get to $850 psf in those areas but all things come to he (or she!) who waits.

51 Walker is a very nice building and there are a few units for sale. Unfortunately, only one of them is properly priced and that is on the 2nd floor and faces a brick wall. Units 6A and 8A are very nice 2 bedrooms in my opinion but way over priced - especially given this is a 10 year tax abatement and you are approaching the first of 5 increases. There are also several other "new" buildings/conversions going up on Walker. I don't believe a single unit has sold. 34 Leonard is in big trouble too. Simply supply demand in the area will drive down the prices to reality. Bid low, otherwise wait it out if you can. And if you originally were thinking of the UES and now Tribeca the two are very different hoods and the convenience/inconvenience of commuting around the city so you might consider renting in Tribeca for a year to make sure you like it and wait for prices to drop. 88 Leonard is a rental building. Or maybe you can find a condo/loft for rent but it may be priced too high. Prices will come down for sure. That new building Five Franklin is not selling. The new one on Leonard is probably going to halt development b/c they can't presell the units and need to raise capital. It may take another 2 years but I am in the camp that things will return back to $1k/sq ft and possibly below. Like the economy and stock market NYC real estate won't have a V-shaped recovery either. Be patient.

I think in Tribeca, if you wait a bit, you will be able to get something really sweet for around 1000 psf. You can definitely get things for 800 psf or less, but don't expect much in terms of finishes of a doorman, and forget about views. As for the West Village, that area is more expensive because there are less units. However, if you are willing to buy a coop, you may be able to get a nice one for around 1000 psf. I would suggest waiting, if you can, until Feb or March, at which point you will see more desperate sellers on the market, and that is where you can get a great bargain on a great unit.
Having lived in both hoods, I prefer the West Village.

nycRe junkie,thanks for the help,so about the abatement ,it increases over the time of the period?I don't think 6a and 8a will come down anytime soon,what do you think 2a should sell for?And we have forgottenabout ues at this time,like the loft feeling and open kitchensWhen do you see bottom and just worried may loose out on some great apt.
mh23 think it will be possible to get something with a view,updated etc. for 850psf?

the building has a 421 tax abatement. That means that every 2 years for 10 years the monthly taxes will increase until they reach the limit. My guess is that after the 10 years your monthly taxes will be around $2,500 but you will need to make sure. Add that to the maintenance and mortgage and your monthlies are far from cheap for that size apt.
2A is offered at below $1,000/sq ft right now. I think it is pretty aparent the seller is desperate and needs out. If you happen to like the apt then send in a bid and see what happens. I personally think you bid $1.5mln and see what happens. only if you like it though.
I think the market will continue to weaken into 2010. Where prices ultimately end up I do not know but my guess is we see below $1k/sq ft again.
If you find a place you love and are worried you may miss out on it if you wait then go ahead and buy it assuming you can afford it. If you have a long time horizon and you are buying a home you plan on living in for the next 7+ years then I'd go ahead and buy it but only if you truly loved the place.
The longer 6A and 8A wait to bring their prices lower to try to sell the harder it will be as the tax abatement goes away. Selling an apt at $1,500/sq ft is a lot easier when the maintenance and taxes are only $1,200/month but try selling at that price when the monthlies are more than double that. These tax abatements are going to get a lot of people in trouble for those who bought into them in the past 3-5 years when they try to sell and recoup their investment.

nycREjunkie,you are the best.So,yes I like it but now I am concerned that in 10years the maintenance and taxes will be about 3800 -4000,is this typical.If it is possible to find a high quality condo ~1.5-1.6 in the future with better cc and taxes ,I would wait.Yes the view seems to impact as well on resale.I am very confused about whether to wait or put a bid in,even if he accepts 1.5-1.6 is it STUPID?Hope some of this makes sense,so far you have been the best inormation I have found and you make sense so tell me.....

2A in 51 Walker has an interesting price history. Looks like the intial buyer bought pre-renovation and closed on it in 12/2006 for $970k and flipped it one month later for $2.0 million. Nice work. But the current buyer who paid $2 million and is now listing it for $1.7 million (after starting at $2.7 million!) is going to take a sizable loss in only 2 years. Does seem like a distress sale of someone who wants out quick.

But the monthlies and view impact the unit.How much does this affect a resale?Is it better to sit it out and wait for the market to imploud?

I don't know Tribeca that well anymore but it is an area with a lot of new contruction/conversions over the last 5 years. It's not as established a neighborhood as the UWS or the West Village, so my guess is it goes down with the ship S.S. Manhattan.

Me, I'd wait and buy a place cheaper. But if the savings don't matter too much to you, you are planning to be there for many years, the joy of owning your own place may overirde potential losses. But if you are worried about resale, sounds like you are thinking you might need to sell within a few years?

Remember, the builder sold that EXACT UNIT for less than $1 million just 2 or 3 years ago. Why can't it go back to that price? Can you live with buying a place for $1.7 million that might be worth $1.0 million in a few years?

The savings matter ,i am concerned about the cc/and taxes seems like it would out price itself.This was the lowest pre construction unit.Doesn't make sense with the timiningsold in 06 for less than mil thena month later for 2.2.And to go from 1.7 to 1 mil and I think it is always necessary to look at is it also a good resale ,if it isn't then it may not be a good sale period.

Not likely. In Tribeca and the WV, all units with a river view will probably not go below 1000, at the absolute lowest. If by view you mean not facing a brick wall, then I would say yes, provided you were willing to buy a coop. Just be patient, things are going to get cheaper.

mh23 thankyou,What areas have a river view?So you agree that a brick wall view could impact and the cc and taxes are to high?I am looking for a 10 year residence at least but I would like to know that I had the piece of mind to be able to sell the unit if necessary.

The resale a month later was probably on a contract that had been signed a year or more earlier, maybe in mid-2005 sometime. Still, a 100% gain in 18 months is a hell of an increase. But the market was red hot during that time. So the question is, can this building go back to where it was in mid-2005, only 3 1/2 years ago? I don't see why not.

I also checked ,it was owned by the developer who wowns 1a as well,so the unit was most likely around 1.7 since 4a was around 1.8.What is your thinking about the cc and taxes in 8years ,is that out of line.Will there be available uniits for 1.5=1.6 about 1500-1600 sf with views other than a wall and top of the line finishes?

I think $4k/month maint taxes for that kind of building (no full time doorman) is way too high. Resale will be difficult most likely with those kinds of monthlies unless we have another housing boom which we may have but right now I honestly don't know when it will occur. The purspose of the virtual doorman is to lower the monthlies. The tax abatement ruins it. As far as the resale 10 years from now your guess is as good as mine. Unless you truly love the place I'd pass. You should be buying something now that you want to live in not that you want to sell in X-years from now. You can't worry about resale. You won't care about resale if you want to live there for the next 10 years b/c anything can happen between now and then. If there is any doubts, then simply pass. Yes it is a great deal relative to what the current owner paid but doesn't mean you are getting a good deal overall just relative to someone who topticked it. The apt is very dark and I personally would wait. There will be others.

Michele you may find this helpful regarding cc charges. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/realestate/24cov.html?pagewanted=print

I can tell you as a broker that facing a brick wall will be a big negative to most potential buyers down the road.If all the windows are facing a wall or courtyard I would stay away unless they were giving the place away. Now that we are seeing a market where every unit does not go into a bidding war, get sold before the first open house buyers have a choice-I have not had any that would choose to face a wall. During the most recent bull years it really didn't matter, but it will in a "normal" market and especially in a declining one. In most of the typical Tribeca conversions you will have bedrooms with windows facing the back(wall) and the living area with street views-this is not so problematic as you can expect this in all other than most new construction. I think you have to wait at least 3-6 months before considering pulling the trigger unless of course you find what you consider your ultimate dream home. In the meantime just keep monitoring the market as the decline has really just begun.

Thankyou both ,this is making things much easier.To theburkhartgroup,shouldn't my broker have pointed out the pitfalls with the view and that the abatement increases every 2 years.So thankyou both ,it has enforced what I had felt and now I will wait

Don't get me in trouble with your broker, but I have been bearish on the sales market for a year. lol.

I certainly would not say it came from another broker,so you agree he should have done some due diligence,knowing we would continue to look,he could have at least said keep the issues in mind before pulling the trigger.Do you see in the future 1k psf with a view?

Change brokers. I don't need to get into the argument over the "purpose" and "value added" of a broker given the internet these days, but at a minimum you hope to find someone who is honest and has their clients' best interests in mind. Unfortunately, if appears yours does not and only wants to close the sale. Those are the ones who gave brokers bad names to begin with. I never understood the broker mentality - they feel they are owed something, like they are performing brain surgery and deserved to get paid when in fact they barely lift a finger. Yes I know not all are the same but no one can argue that the vast majority have been like that. Maybe it has to do with so many people getting into the industry during this past boom b/c of the easy money to be made. Now in times like these it'll be Darwinism at its best and those weak ones will be crushed. Brokers like Burkhardt seem to have a brain and realize if anything it is a relationship biz built on honesty and hard work. As a broker if you are honest and steer your client in the right direction although that may mean you don't get paid it will take you so much further than the little 3% commission you may have earned on that one sale. Congrats to Burk for realizing it. Sure hope you practice what you preach.
Good choice to wait. I would pay $1.5mln for 6A or 8A right now. Not 2A.
Just think of all of the condos that are still going up in the area and not to mention 101 Warren or 200 Chambers that have all of the rental listings from speculators now either trying to flip or rent out at prices that will cover their costs. Good luck with that! There is a lot of pain to come to a lot of unfortunate people and I am not "happy" about that but it is what will happen and you have the ability to reap the rewards. I do not have sympathy for them as they decided to take on the risk and their intentions were to buy low and simply flip for an immediate, unwarranted profit. Unfortunately, they got stuck as the last one holding the bag. There will be a bit of a snowball affect driving prices lower all over NYC but it will just take a little bit of time. Patience is key.

Thanks so much for the help,this is a great site and honesty is important,now there will be one less broker to work with,and he had only showed us 3 places to that point,we also told him we were in no rush,but wanted quality sooooooooooooooo,thanks everyone

Michele1045 - 2A down to $1.625mln ask. Wow that's a lot of pain. Obviously I do feel bad for anyone that has to experience something like this but I guess on every trade there is a winner and there is a loser. That's what makes markets right? Again, tough call b/c apt faces a brick wall and is dark but at some point there is a price for everything. Maybe you like the apt more than I do (to each their own) so maybe throw in the $1.3-$1.4mln bid and stay firm and see what happens. At that level you put down 25% and mortgage will be below the $1.1mln max tax advantage. I'm still torn on if that really is the right move or not given the apt details but maybe keep it on the radar.

You are so correct,it is dark and the brick wall will impact on a future sail,then there is stuff going on in the building,the taxes will go to 2140 which is very high,then the block is not great but yes where do you draw the line,with this bear market it is difficult to settle.Any suggestions on a different area to get high ceilings ,open kitchen ,top end finishes for 1000psf,and 1500-1600sf
thanks

unfortunately not much out there in that size and price range. A little bigger/more expensive is 73 Worth - apt 5D. Not yet $1k/sq ft but certainly bid that. Still above your price range but maybe you have some room. Not the best block either. I think you're going to have to wait for the ideal place to show up but i'm sure it will. Do you want a doorman or cyberdoorman or can you do without? 390 West Broadway. 462 Greenwich. Just to give you a little perspective of what is out there right now.

michele, I have lived in tribeca for a few years and know it very well. I have also been following the local RE market in tribeca for many years.

Why are you looking at Worth, Walker and White? Is it because of available inventory? There has been a lot of coverstion activity on Walker st but for a lot of people, this area of far Eastern tribeca does not feel like tribeca. Closer to Hudson or Greenwhich is much closer to the heart of tribeca.

However, at least with Eastern tribeca you are close to Soho and China Town and you have more classic loft buildings along White and Walker.

Is being zoned for ps234 important for you? Do you have kids? Being closer to ps234 and Washington Market Park would be advantageous in that case.

Tribeca is not really known for its views. A vast stretch of the Hudson river is blocked by BMCC, Independence Plaza and the Citicorp buildings. Added to that, the 5/6 story loft buildings all face each each other with their rears about 20 feet away from the rear of the buildings on the parallel streets. The buildings with views (Atlanta at 25 NMoore, Ice House at 27 NMoore, Riverlofts at 92 Laight for example, are expensive and unlikley to come down to $1000psf.

However, I believe that many apts will come down to 1k psf. I would wait about 6 months because there has not been that much inventory of resales which is where I would expect to see bargains. Also, would you consider coops? There are already some coop lofts at 1k psf and this is where you definitely see cheaper prices.

Avoid 25 Murray like the plague - it has been extensively discussed on streeteasy. Having said that, if prices come down enough, say 650 psf then I would consider buying there but not the apts with fake bedrooms that have windows only visible from an upper crawl space.

Also consider 38-44 Warren st. Ugly building but big so it has a good mix of sizes and it has never commanded the prices that the afore mentioned buildings with views have.

If you have any more questions I would be happy to answer but I don't have the time to post that frequently. I will answer though.

Good luck

I am worried about walker if in the future we have to resell and the brick wall then is an issue again.I agree it is close to china town and no the school is not important,at the moment.I would like to be downtown but stay in the range of 1.5-1.650 or so.At this moment not alot with great finishes.Any recommendations for area would be appreciated,the brokers just don't listen.

just checked out 73 worth is great but 1.9 is out of my range ,do you think it is worth 1kpsf,anything like that ,would even take 1600-1700sf

I think you need to wait. Not much out there right now in your price range/size. A lot of those apts are still stuck in denial asking $1,400/sq ft right now but in time they will come lower.

How well I remember looking at 1300-1400 sf spaces in Tribeca for around $600 psf (2000). Strongly consider a co-op if you can and you are worried about RE taxes (a very legit worry in my view). Unlike the past, total carrying charges for most coops tends to be a fair amount less than for condos, particularly at the end of the day when the abatement runs out which will greatly affect your resale. Even before October, conversions that didn't have abatements were generally having a much harder time selling than those with abatements.

Thanks ,I am interested in mainly downtown areas,hopefully coops will drop soon as well