building at 133 West 22nd Street

Why would anyone do that? It is a great building and well worth every penny.

Maybe because there are RATS in the building. Each rat spotted before the sponsor hands over control is a $50K deduction. So far it isn't pretty.

I'd be interested to know if anyone is renegotiating their purchase price too. Has anyone tried?

This is the only building in Chelsea, well make that all of NYC, that has increased in value over the past 9 months, so why would the developers reneg the prices? You can flip-it and make a 20%-30% profit by Valentines Day.

dream on.... this building has lost value as every other building in the city... maybe we could say that the value went down with a slower pace and not as drastically, but it's not up. Not in January 2009. And whoever is thinking of flipping, needs to be prepared for a disappointment. Read any real estate news, prices are going down even more. And I did hear that some people are trying to renegotiate their prices

i think he was joking

I think the renegotiation is in the 10-15% range

Check ACRIS. It seems like the average is about 5%, some are a bit more.

Thanks for the info. Is 10-15%(NYrealestate) and 5%(NordbergCorp)for this buildling? What arguments are buyers making when asking for renegotiation on the price? Do you know if the sponsor has agreed to renegotiate down the price for this building for people who are in contract?

Yes, the sponsor has been giving discounts.

are the rat gangs not a good enough argument cause that sounds scary as hell

Thank you. Do you know approximately what the discount % is? Thanks a lot for your info.

For what I heard, some buyers are bringing comps and saying that the apartment is not worth what it was and that they are ready to walk out. Others are asking discounts because they had to sell their apartment at a discount. NordbergCorp, how do you see closing prices on ACRIS? ACRIS tracks document filed and the last document is from November. The closings are too recent to be filed anyplace. Or am I wrong? Could you send a link, if you have better info? Thank you

My bad, I wasn't looking properly, here is a link to ACRIS with one apartment as an example (I hope I didn't use the apartment of someone in this blog -- if I did, sorry---), if anyone else wants to see where they are: http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/Detail?Doc_ID=2008120200381003 . PS: If you subscribe to StreetEasy Insider for $10 you can see them all... I just discovered that.

Hi, from analysis of the asking/closing prices, it looks that only apartment 6K received a large discount from $925,000 to $745.000 = 19%. The average is 4% and some of the discount might have been negotiated at the contract signature, not now. Apt 6K, if you are on this blog, can you let us know whether you renegotiated the price now or it was agreed upon when you first signed the contract? Thank you. Here are all the asking and closing prices as recorded to Dec 31 (Jan not availabe yet):

Apt # Selling Price Asking Price Date closing Size Sq/ft Discount %
2A 1,250,000 1,250,000 3/13 2 Beds 1,135 Acquired by Board Mgr
8H 765,000 850,000 10/28 1bed 703 10.0% 85,000
3J 865,000 935,000 11/25 1 Bed 763 7.5% 70,000
4A 675,000 675,000 11/25 0 Beds 532 0.0% 0
5L 800,000 860,000 11/25 1 bed 634 7.0% 60,000
3L 830,000 830,000 12/2 1 Bed 634 0.0% 0
5H 910,000 955,000 12/2 1 Bed 763 4.7% 45,000
4J 885,000 950,000 12/3 1 Bed 763 6.8% 65,000
4E 1,120,000 1,130,000 12/4 1 Bed 894 0.9% 10,000
4B 1,665,000 1,665,000 12/5 2 Beds 1,286 0.0% 0
4D 1,100,000 1,130,000 12/5 1 Bed 894 2.7% 30,000
4H 885,000 945,000 12/5 1 Bed 763 6.3% 60,000
4G 975,000 985,000 12/8 1 Bed 798 1.0% 10,000
6G 982,000 1,005,000 12/8 1 Bed 798 2.3% 23,000
6J 940,000 980,000 12/8 1 Bed 763 4.1% 40,000
6H 965,000 965,000 12/11 1 Bed 763 0.0% 0
6E 1,150,000 1,150,000 12/12 1 Bed 894 0.0% 0
7B 1,700,000 1,740,000 12/12 2 beds 1,231 2.3% 40,000
6K 745,000 925,000 12/15 1 Bed 643 19.5% 180,000
6L 810,000 875,000 12/18 1 Bed 634 7.4% 65,000
7J 870,000 870,000 12/19 1 bed 694 0.0% 0
7E 2,200,000 2,200,000 12/22 2 beds 1,456 0.0% 0
3H 895,000 935,000 12/23 1 Bed 763 4.3% 40,000
7C 981,000 1,025,000 12/24 1 Beds 791 4.3% 44,000

Avg 4.0%

Construction quality
Developer reputation

As someone who attended a friend's walk-through, I can personally attest that the quality of the work was horrible. It appeared as if the apartment was just slapped together by unskilled workers, rushing the job, damaging everything, in order to get to a quick closing. The place was a complete disaster. Ben, the arrogant developer, should be jailed as a scam artist, since he promised "luxury condos". Luxury My Ass! Buyers seriously beware!

RatsAt133W22, why are you so upset about these alleged rats? If you own there, you wouldn't want to be spreading the news about infestations. What's your deal?

I happened to walk by this building yesterday. Looks great and in decent location. I can't attest to what's inside though...

Please

Thanks a lot NYrealestate. So the discount prices above may have been negotiated at the time of signing contract and not at closing? Does anybody have information about renegotiating purchase prices at closing and what % of discounts the sponsor has been giving out?

Those discounts could have been negotiated at any time, only the buyer knows exactly when. My real estate agent said that several re-negotiation are in place right now in the 10-15% range. Everything we see in the ACRIS list was completed in Dec, so we still can't see the results of current negotiations and closings. Also, she said some buyers are asking the developer to pay for closing expenses, anything between $70-100K, which won't appear as a discount in the sale price as all developers prefers discounts that don't show publicly.

hello123 - ben is a total arrogant prick. he will try to bully you when you meet him. be ready for a battle when you go in to negotiate. good luck.

buyers who renegotiate are asked to sign confidentiality agreements if the credit they get is substantial and not share how negotiable the apartments are/were, and I think it is more likely the sponsor will give a credit back on closing costs and then an additional credit and have people close at full price from the offering plan.. the reason they have never negotiated in the past was bc peoples apartments had to appraise properly.. I am sure they would rather have a building close out at higher prices that are recorded than lower the actual price on the deed

the sponsor will allow an assignment and apparently there has been a one bed that was pre construction pricing in the 700k range and assigned around 900k most recently... i know other people who bought in the building and arent thrilled they bought in a peak market but still dont think the market is down enough atleast for this building to walk from their down payment

Rats?

ratsat133w22 - you shouldn't live in nyc if you are afraid of rats.

Rats are a serious problem if a building is infested. It is not common. It is not acceptable in any way. A rat is not a mouse, which is problem enough. The nonchalance with which buyers at this building have been treating the rat infestation is bizarre.

Thanks a lot for all of your replies. So the negotiation price range is 10-15%. What arguments are buyers making to get these discounts? What worked and what didn't?

Hi, I tried negotiating and was unsuccessful. I would like to ask "hello123" question again. What are people saying to get discounts and who are people talking to? Also, NY realestate, I joined the street easy insider...where can I find the asking and closing prices for apts?

The asking prices are listed in the Apartment in Contract list, in the building page. For the closing prices, you can either look at the bottom of the building page, and click in the small tab that says 'sales' or do a search for the building under the "Recorded Sales" tab. Also, when you get to the individual apartment's page, you will see the "view original city filing" and you can be linked directly to ACRIS.

I wasn't able to find any asking and sales prices that are different. I looked at a bunch of apts on the ACRIS website and then matched it to the sales price (via a document sent to me by the building with all the tenants and their sales price)...and they were the same. If that is true, then I would assume that people who were successful at negotiating did it when they signed the contract for the down payment. I haven't seen a sales price that is different from the closing price as listed in ACRIS. So...do you know of people who have been able to negotiate at the closing and if so, what have they been saying to make these discounts happen?

You are right. The system now updated the asking prices to match the closing price for the apartments that closed (the ones that didn't close are still showing at asking price). But if you look in the last amendment in the offering, you'll see the real asking prices. The average seems to still be around 5% discount.

Can you offer any insight or advice as to how people got the discounts? It appears as if these apts are being appraised for their asking prices, making it difficult to argue that the apts have devalued because of the economy (even though everyone says that real estate prices have dropped about 10-15% and is projected to decrease to about 30-40%). The developers are extremely unaccommodating and unwilling to make any adjustments to the prices.

i think its bc while the market has dropped- this building hasnt as much--this would have been a building where people flipped for high profits that bought early on- there was also said to be an assignment here already on a one bed.. the building is desirable- the street is also... so essentially if people choose to walk from their deposits it would bemore than the market is down and people who bought he really wanted the building...

that's my point. appraising an apt/building is subjective and not an exact science. the developers offered mortgage brokers who then pick their appraisers...so it's possible that people are working together for their own self interest and inflating their appraisals. why would every other building devalue except this one? don't you think that there other desirable buildings on nice streets? these same developers are working on a project in the ues and have renegotiated their contract prices with people. i would assume that we all really wanted the building, that's why we bought apartments there. but the economy has severely changed and unless someone is extremely wealthy, without any financial concerns, then i think most people would want and even need an adjustment in order to be able to stay in the building because they do really want to be there.

nyc__apt,
I presume you are referring to the Georgica on UES, where do you have info they are renegotiating prices?

"The developers are extremely unaccommodating and unwilling to make any adjustments to the prices."

Well, they already have your 10% and they don't believe you are ready to walk away from it. Why should they accommodate you?

Of course, if you did walk away, they probably couldn't sell it for within 20% of what your contract price was, so they would take a haircut and do have some incentive to play ball. But they are fully justified in calling your bluff.

You might want to keep in mind that Ben Shaoul has plenty of trouble these days. His East Village portfolio is back on the market, and considering he overpaid when buying it from Extell in 07, there's no way he's going to get out without a substantial loss. Looking at the numbers (rents for all units in every building are posted with the listings on the Massey Knakal site) he's losing money on those buildings every month. In a friend's building they've stopped a renovation midway, rendering the unit uninhabitable. The impression is that they're spending as little money as possible.

Over at the A Building they've had to discount units by as much as 19%, and some are still available. Meanwhile, there's already scaffolding back up on the 14th St. side. Not sure what's actually happening, but there was talk of lawsuits from buyers there.

He was even told by the city that he has to remove additions to two East Village tenements that he owns.

have any of you closed on this building? any insight as to what conditions are in the building on a day to day basis????

rats!!!

Closing notices have been mailed for all floors of the building now and some closings have been postponed as they are still missing the CofO from the 10th floor up. Is there anyone from the 10-13th floor that can give us any news on upcoming closings?

How do I access ACRIS to see the final prices for the units in this building? I tried clicking on the link above provided by NYrealestate and for some reason it doesn't work. Thanks for your help.

Go to the Section "Activity for this building" at the bottom of the page. Click on the recorded price for any one of the apartments sold you see the page (for example 3F) you will get to the individual page with the recorded sale information. On the right side of that page there is a link that says "View Original City Filing" 2/20/09. Click on that and follow the instructions.

I am sorry, perhaps I am looking at the wrong link.

This is what I'm looking at
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/jump/acris.shtml

I don't see "Activity for this building." Sorry- can you please send me the correcet link if I'm looking at the wrong one? Thanks very much for your help.

I am talking about starting from the building page on StreetEasy. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/133-west-22-street-manhattan .....And here is the link for one of the individual pages where you can see the "View Original Filing" link; http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/closing/791274

I see... but since I'm not "Insider" I can't see the information...
Is there a way to look at it at ACRIS?

Thanks very much for your help.

I'm not sure whether Ben is more flexible now, but when I met with him, his best offer was paying for the closing cost (which was about 5% deduction). He also tried to see if I'd take a smaller place since someone else walked away.

closings on the higher floors have now started.. who is ben?

Ben Shaoul - developer. He's the one you will have to negotiate with.
http://www.observer.com/2008/boy-developer-ben-shaoul-wants-live-forever

Does anyone know why more of the 1 bdrm units have not closed in this building? Just curious?

bc a million dollars for a one bed never made sense

looks like the developer just listed a 2 bdr 6th floor apartment for 1,715,000

wonder what the real sale price is at this time. this seems like a pre market fall price.

a bunch of units came back on the market recently all at out of date pricing

It seems like a lot of the units still need to close and I don't see that happening so fast. I know of some units back on the market that are not listed on streeteasy

Does anyone know what's going on with this building? From reading the threads here, it looks like closings started around November/December of last year, but at last count, only about 15 or 20 seem to have closed. Over 80 seem to be in contract and don't seem to be moving.

What does this mean? Does this mean that people are walking away from their contracts? I don't however, see any of the prices being dropped though, so it is hard to tell whats going on.

Any insight would be appreciated.

I am not a owner or have any stake, but like the look of the building when I walk by. Maybe consider buying if prices drop. too pricey for me.

46 apartments have closed

some helpful commentary about this building on this blog

http://abodeny.blogspot.com/

hey..comments on this address have been slow...how are new tenants doing?

i see 2 very vecent sales (11F and 6D) in the 900k range, which seems well below the average price for this building. does anyone know why i shouldn't use these as comps when bidding on the remaining available units?

its possible that these have differen't floorplans than the other f/d lines, which are both over 1100sf.

ive been watching the building for a while, but had no interest at over 1000 a foot. if its really in the 900/ft range or below, i should take another look.

also, 9j sold a bit higher per foot, but it seems that the <800k market is a lot stronger, given the cheaper (and more available) mortgages

also, whats up across the street at the clement clarke? the 12 or so unsold units all got taken off the market? changing brokers or going rental?

133 West 22nd St. in Chelsea: Magnum Real Estate and Ascend Group
Disputes on at least 7 out of 90 units (8 percent) have been filed with the AG. Magnum principal Ben Shaoul said the firm is "confident, based on our experience, that we will prevail." He noted that the building initially had a 30 percent default rate, "but we sat down with every single buyer, and got everyone a loan."

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/where-are-buyers-backing-out

some loss here on new construction...d'oh

Sold on Mar 22, 2010 for $590,000
133 West 22nd St, 7A
Manhattan, NY 10011
Boro-block-lot: 1-798-1506

Sold on Dec 19, 2008 for $705,000
133 West 22nd St, 7A
Manhattan, NY 10011