another townhouse just a block or two away, also with some stabilized units, sold for 2.2 million this winter. it's hard to comp townhouses with stabilized apartments, so it's just not possible to know. but after sitting on the market for so long with no interest it is safe to say that this will either not trade at all or trade far below $3 million.
hr - right, I remember the thread (can't seem to locate it now). If I recall correctly, once the price dropped to 2.2MM, interest went thru the roof. I find that interesting, personally. Since it wasn't getting much action at 3 (again, if I recall correctly).
That, combined with this listing, is a bit telling, no? Perhaps, regardless of comps, there's a certain price point in prime areas where TH are 1) a good deal or 2) affordable to a broader audience (or both)
oh sure, there is definitely 'a certain price point' at which almost any listing is a good deal. the question is what that price point is, and given that this thing continues to sit on the market i think it is safe to say that $3 million isn't it.
i should add that while interest may have gone 'through the roof' when the thing got cut to 2.2, it actually closed for....2.2. they did not get a bidding war. let them cut this to 2.2 and then we can talk; at that point it would be worth it to run the numbers, consider the condition of the building, etc. at 3, no.
At first glance, the price looks delusional, since the building traded twice at much lower prices in recent years. The key point, though, is that the dirty work of booting tenants has progressed rather steadily, so the property probably IS more valuable now, despite the market conditions. We'll see how much of that added value is offset by the general climate of doom.
Hmm, I thought it closed at 2.2 cash w/ very quick closing. Weren't there 19 offers or am i remembering that incorrectly? My hunch is there were a significant number of people willing to pay more than 2.2, but obviously, I don't know this as fact.
Also, weren't there bids in the mid to high 2's when it was listed around 3, but the sellers declined those offers?
Anyway...not sure if any of it means anything other than TH for under $3MM seem to get a lot of interest.
seems grossly overpriced to me, and unlikely to sell at anything close to this price -- it was listed at this price in Dec 2007.
Yes it is perhaps the lowest priced TH now that the one on 85th is gone for 2.2 million.
But this is only a 14-15 fot wide building with limited potential unless you can convert to single family
West 81 is correct that the one on 90th is a much better building and even it was acquired for only $2.6 million not that long ago.
Will be interesting to see what these finally settle for -- if they don't go soon, then $2 million could be possible.
there are 25 people watching the townhouse because it's been on the market for a year and a half--lots of time to build up people watching it. hell, i am one of the 25 people and i have no interest in buying this house whatsoever. the fact is, a nicer townhouse with a similar rent-stabilized situation (actually, more of the other house was deregulated) sold for $2.2 million. it's quite a spin to call 2.2 'less than 3 million.' i mean, it is also less than 10 million, but it is also less than 2.3 million. this is a narrow house with a butt-load of regulated tenants. it didn't sell at this price when the market was 20% or more higher. unless they change their strategy, it's certainly not going to sell now.
the 90th street house is much, much better. and you are right, west81st, that it is more valuable now that some of the tenants are out. but i find if very strange that they stopped emptying it in the middle. this tells me one of two things: either they ran out of money and have to sell now, or there are a few extremely tenacious holdouts. the house would clearly be much more valuable with no tenants than it is with three.
My 2 cents. Width is not everything. I'm a fan of the "low stoop" 5-story townhouse as opposed to a "high stoop" tonwhouse. With a high stoop, it's always (at least with the brownstoner.com crowd) a constant discussion as to placement of kitchen and everyday dining area. With a "low stoop" townhouse like this, the flow is much better - you enter into the kitchen and family area. 2nd floor - library & living room, etc. And because the English basement already exists with windows, that is a very natural place to put a playroom and live-in help.
The thing about wider townhouses that people don't realize is that you only get a one room yield front and back - if you split even a 21-foot width into 2 rooms, the rooms are narrow and you typically one room with 2 windows and the other with one. Of course I'm not saying a 13 foot is desirable over a 21 foot but if you're looking at an 18-footer vs. 21-footer you're paying for the bragging rights, not usability.
Hmmm. I don't know which is "better". The staircase in 331 West 87th is gorgeous and it claims to have original detail. 312 West 90th does not make the same claim.
Who knows (not me!!)...I guess you would have to see both to really know. And, of course, tenant situation is a factor.
i agree that width is not everything--a narrow house with a low stoop and center stairwell can be absolutely lovely. but lets remember, in this case you are not getting the entire house. you are getting three vacant units. i'd also add that this is 14 ft house, not 18 feet. so while width is not everything, that's not the only problem with this house.
There aren't many of those on the UWS. I think 312 W 90th is going to be interesting to watch. The sellers have probably overextended themselves as a cursory Google search will inform you :)
Based on the occupations of the sellers and their various dealings on ACRIS, I would be surprised if they hadn't overextended themselves... Possible that there's family money, but then why sell?
BTW, just to make it clear that I don't think 3m is a realistic price for 331W87, but it's a world apart location-wise from 220W85. W87 bet. RSD and WE is gorgeous.
It's a fixed % based on "market value" and type of building (1-fam, etc) and there is a limitation on how much it can increase year-over-year. Be forewarned that any job filings with the building dept and the sale transaction (as well as other sales on the block) will trigger a raise in the market value. Also, the "lower" taxes on some buildings reflect exemptions that the previous owners may have been entitled to (senior citizen, etc.). For a 5mish townhouse on the UWS s. of 96th, in general, the tax bills will be high.
A cursory search on NYC property dept website will tell you exactly what the tax bill for each property is and its neighbors, as well as the previous 2+ years of tax history. Careful inspection has shown me that the properties with the lowest taxes generally belong to long-time owners who have not filed any jobs with the building dept.
Multi units bring higher taxes. Also, if it's transferred recently, the taxes go up...many multi family units have very high taxes. You can apply to have them reduced if you consolidate, but it's a long process and I don't think it ever works.
Without looking at the records for 132 and its neighbors on the block - first off, there are at least 7 units in the building which means that tax is based on a higher % of the assessed market value.
But if you think you're going to save money by converting into single family, think again - the assessed value will go up, and you won't be protected from the year-over-year increase because you would have filed something with the bldg dept.
Bottom line - property taxes in Manhattan are sky-high (Bk hasn't quite caught up even though there are many multi-m properties) and townhouses bear a disproportionate load compared to larger apt buildings like prewar co-ops. Condos have hefty tax assessments as well.
Nshipley - sorry, they don't get reduced when you consolidate. The tax rate changes and you are assessed on 6% as opposed to say 45% of market. But since you have to file reno permits with the city, etc., you then get hit by a larger increase than you would have normally be hit with.
i'm not saying it shouldn't be taxed at that rate. i am merely pointing out that it **is** taxed at that rate, and that taxes have to be taken into account.
West 81st - that is also my favorite UWS TH. The first picture is great. Interestingly, this was listed as sold a day or two ago. Now it's still on the market.
So, re: taxes - one can assume that 132 W 70 has had many updates & a place w/ $2k montly tax probably has not (assuming none are single family homes)? or is that too simplistic?
In the case of 132 W 70, the market value jumped based on property values of the nabe in general. Nothing to do with any improvements, from what I can see of the tax history.
Yes, because a 4-bedroom Trump at 200 RSB would have taxes around the same level (19k) if not more - I think that 10-year tax abatement has just about expired.
The block of the 129 W 69th Street house is great. It's also right across the street from a pretty church. The West 70th Street block is nice, but at least the outside of the house doesn't compare to the 69th Street house. If I had the means (which I don't), I would definately choose the West 69th Street house over the West 70th Street one.
Sale at 331 West 87th Street - Townhouse $3MM
I find the number of streeteasy users watching this sale interesting. 21 saved this.
Wondering if its indicative of 1) a good deal (or close to it), 2) people's general level of affordability, 3) both, or 4) none of the above =).
uwsmom,
another townhouse just a block or two away, also with some stabilized units, sold for 2.2 million this winter. it's hard to comp townhouses with stabilized apartments, so it's just not possible to know. but after sitting on the market for so long with no interest it is safe to say that this will either not trade at all or trade far below $3 million.
I presume the taxes are annually
hr - right, I remember the thread (can't seem to locate it now). If I recall correctly, once the price dropped to 2.2MM, interest went thru the roof. I find that interesting, personally. Since it wasn't getting much action at 3 (again, if I recall correctly).
That, combined with this listing, is a bit telling, no? Perhaps, regardless of comps, there's a certain price point in prime areas where TH are 1) a good deal or 2) affordable to a broader audience (or both)
oh sure, there is definitely 'a certain price point' at which almost any listing is a good deal. the question is what that price point is, and given that this thing continues to sit on the market i think it is safe to say that $3 million isn't it.
i should add that while interest may have gone 'through the roof' when the thing got cut to 2.2, it actually closed for....2.2. they did not get a bidding war. let them cut this to 2.2 and then we can talk; at that point it would be worth it to run the numbers, consider the condition of the building, etc. at 3, no.
I think this one is much more attractive:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/312-west-90-street-manhattan
At first glance, the price looks delusional, since the building traded twice at much lower prices in recent years. The key point, though, is that the dirty work of booting tenants has progressed rather steadily, so the property probably IS more valuable now, despite the market conditions. We'll see how much of that added value is offset by the general climate of doom.
Hmm, I thought it closed at 2.2 cash w/ very quick closing. Weren't there 19 offers or am i remembering that incorrectly? My hunch is there were a significant number of people willing to pay more than 2.2, but obviously, I don't know this as fact.
Also, weren't there bids in the mid to high 2's when it was listed around 3, but the sellers declined those offers?
Anyway...not sure if any of it means anything other than TH for under $3MM seem to get a lot of interest.
LOL. Now we're up to 25 users watching this one.
My apologies to anyone seriously interested in this property ;)
"seriously interested" what does it mean in this market?
it's funny that a townhouse will end up costing the same as a 2 bedroom a year ago. nice!
seems grossly overpriced to me, and unlikely to sell at anything close to this price -- it was listed at this price in Dec 2007.
Yes it is perhaps the lowest priced TH now that the one on 85th is gone for 2.2 million.
But this is only a 14-15 fot wide building with limited potential unless you can convert to single family
West 81 is correct that the one on 90th is a much better building and even it was acquired for only $2.6 million not that long ago.
Will be interesting to see what these finally settle for -- if they don't go soon, then $2 million could be possible.
I think in ANY market "seriously interested" = interested in purchasing at a value set by the interested purchaser.
uwsmom,
there are 25 people watching the townhouse because it's been on the market for a year and a half--lots of time to build up people watching it. hell, i am one of the 25 people and i have no interest in buying this house whatsoever. the fact is, a nicer townhouse with a similar rent-stabilized situation (actually, more of the other house was deregulated) sold for $2.2 million. it's quite a spin to call 2.2 'less than 3 million.' i mean, it is also less than 10 million, but it is also less than 2.3 million. this is a narrow house with a butt-load of regulated tenants. it didn't sell at this price when the market was 20% or more higher. unless they change their strategy, it's certainly not going to sell now.
the 90th street house is much, much better. and you are right, west81st, that it is more valuable now that some of the tenants are out. but i find if very strange that they stopped emptying it in the middle. this tells me one of two things: either they ran out of money and have to sell now, or there are a few extremely tenacious holdouts. the house would clearly be much more valuable with no tenants than it is with three.
My 2 cents. Width is not everything. I'm a fan of the "low stoop" 5-story townhouse as opposed to a "high stoop" tonwhouse. With a high stoop, it's always (at least with the brownstoner.com crowd) a constant discussion as to placement of kitchen and everyday dining area. With a "low stoop" townhouse like this, the flow is much better - you enter into the kitchen and family area. 2nd floor - library & living room, etc. And because the English basement already exists with windows, that is a very natural place to put a playroom and live-in help.
The thing about wider townhouses that people don't realize is that you only get a one room yield front and back - if you split even a 21-foot width into 2 rooms, the rooms are narrow and you typically one room with 2 windows and the other with one. Of course I'm not saying a 13 foot is desirable over a 21 foot but if you're looking at an 18-footer vs. 21-footer you're paying for the bragging rights, not usability.
Hmmm. I don't know which is "better". The staircase in 331 West 87th is gorgeous and it claims to have original detail. 312 West 90th does not make the same claim.
Who knows (not me!!)...I guess you would have to see both to really know. And, of course, tenant situation is a factor.
I'm a sucker. I would suffer in a 14-15 foot wide townhouse =)
nyc10023,
i agree that width is not everything--a narrow house with a low stoop and center stairwell can be absolutely lovely. but lets remember, in this case you are not getting the entire house. you are getting three vacant units. i'd also add that this is 14 ft house, not 18 feet. so while width is not everything, that's not the only problem with this house.
There aren't many of those on the UWS. I think 312 W 90th is going to be interesting to watch. The sellers have probably overextended themselves as a cursory Google search will inform you :)
nyc,
what did you find in your google search that i missed? i guess i am not as google savy as i thought.
My gut feel is that if 331 lowered to 1.995m, they'd have more than one bid over ask.
Based on the occupations of the sellers and their various dealings on ACRIS, I would be surprised if they hadn't overextended themselves... Possible that there's family money, but then why sell?
BTW, just to make it clear that I don't think 3m is a realistic price for 331W87, but it's a world apart location-wise from 220W85. W87 bet. RSD and WE is gorgeous.
nyc10023: Maybe they'll throw in a few nice dinners. ;o)
Exactimundo.
Around the corner on West End between 90th and 91st, the Greek Orthodox Church just knocked 14% off the asking price for the old house next door.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/300844-multi-631-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
tiny back yard. Literally on top of the church.
Yeah - this is a great space. I've seen quite a few price chops this week.
if we are talking price chops on UWS townhouses, i'm a fan of this 25% cut--albeit on a more expensive house on 75th street:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/355584-anyhouse-311-west-75th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
HR: Wow. If you buy it and keep it as a multifamily for a few years, can the kids and I live in the smaller unit?
if i bought a townhouse i'd want a garden, so :(. i think that one next to the church is rather gorgeous though, don't you?
lovely!
Another chop, http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/349484-multi-132-west-70th-street-lincoln-square-new-york
uwsmom, the taxes on that one are 43k/year. that's awful.
didn't even pay attention to that! I only noticed that it was coming down. You can't compare West 70's to West 90's, right?
sure you can compare the west 70s to the west 90s. depends on the block. in general the 70s are more coveted, but you have to do more analysis.
I have no idea what determines tax rate.
why would the taxes be so high at 132 W 70?
It's a fixed % based on "market value" and type of building (1-fam, etc) and there is a limitation on how much it can increase year-over-year. Be forewarned that any job filings with the building dept and the sale transaction (as well as other sales on the block) will trigger a raise in the market value. Also, the "lower" taxes on some buildings reflect exemptions that the previous owners may have been entitled to (senior citizen, etc.). For a 5mish townhouse on the UWS s. of 96th, in general, the tax bills will be high.
A cursory search on NYC property dept website will tell you exactly what the tax bill for each property is and its neighbors, as well as the previous 2+ years of tax history. Careful inspection has shown me that the properties with the lowest taxes generally belong to long-time owners who have not filed any jobs with the building dept.
Multi units bring higher taxes. Also, if it's transferred recently, the taxes go up...many multi family units have very high taxes. You can apply to have them reduced if you consolidate, but it's a long process and I don't think it ever works.
Without looking at the records for 132 and its neighbors on the block - first off, there are at least 7 units in the building which means that tax is based on a higher % of the assessed market value.
But if you think you're going to save money by converting into single family, think again - the assessed value will go up, and you won't be protected from the year-over-year increase because you would have filed something with the bldg dept.
Bottom line - property taxes in Manhattan are sky-high (Bk hasn't quite caught up even though there are many multi-m properties) and townhouses bear a disproportionate load compared to larger apt buildings like prewar co-ops. Condos have hefty tax assessments as well.
yuck - the tax talk is ruining my fantasy (seriously - the info was helpful. Thanks!).
Another small dive on UWS, http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361448-townhouse-129-west-69th-street-lincoln-square-new-york
Nshipley - sorry, they don't get reduced when you consolidate. The tax rate changes and you are assessed on 6% as opposed to say 45% of market. But since you have to file reno permits with the city, etc., you then get hit by a larger increase than you would have normally be hit with.
But to put it in perspective, it's not that outrageous - why shouldn't a property that sells for close to 5 million dollars be taxed at 40k+?
i'm not saying it shouldn't be taxed at that rate. i am merely pointing out that it **is** taxed at that rate, and that taxes have to be taken into account.
Ah, I agree.
If we're picking without regard to price, I'd probably go with this one:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/360030-house-327-west-76th-street-upper-west-side-new-york
Down 28% from the original ask.
nyc10023: I was referring to a tax certiorari, when you can petition to have the taxes reduced.
West 81st - that is also my favorite UWS TH. The first picture is great. Interestingly, this was listed as sold a day or two ago. Now it's still on the market.
So, re: taxes - one can assume that 132 W 70 has had many updates & a place w/ $2k montly tax probably has not (assuming none are single family homes)? or is that too simplistic?
Nshipley - this is why the neighbors matter. If they have been contentedly paying 40k+ for years and years, filing tax cert not going to help.
In the case of 132 W 70, the market value jumped based on property values of the nabe in general. Nothing to do with any improvements, from what I can see of the tax history.
Hmm, so taxes here are $19k/yr. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361448-townhouse-129-west-69th-street-lincoln-square-new-york
Equally nice street (In fact, W 69 might be nicer). That's a pretty significant tax difference, no? Maybe not.
Huge tax difference. What I'm saying is that you can't count on the taxes staying proportionately lower.
So, do you think $19k/yr is low? This block of W 69th is lovely!
Yes, because a 4-bedroom Trump at 200 RSB would have taxes around the same level (19k) if not more - I think that 10-year tax abatement has just about expired.
The block of the 129 W 69th Street house is great. It's also right across the street from a pretty church. The West 70th Street block is nice, but at least the outside of the house doesn't compare to the 69th Street house. If I had the means (which I don't), I would definately choose the West 69th Street house over the West 70th Street one.