broker squatre foot inflation

ok so I can't spell. The word is square not squatre. sorry

I can explain. In New York, you pay for dreams. You dream you're living in 2200 square feet when it is actually 1700 square feet. I wouldn't say anything about the square footage if I were selling the place, I would concentrate on marketing the fact that you would be living in the Majestic, certainly a dream for some people.

What worries me is the word "customize" in the following sentence,

"A rare opportunity to customize your home in the sky at one of the premier prewar Central Park West cooperatives, "

which I am afraid means "gut renovate". There is only one picture taken in the apartment and it is of the corner of the fireplace mantle. Not exactly awe inspiring. Who knows what the apartment really looks like?

Who do you suppose stands to gain the most from an inflated square footage estimate? The broker or the owner?

My impression is that brokers can also be "pressured" by the owner as regards what is the "correct" square footage.

brokers need to be regulated by the government.

I know who does not stand to gain from the square footage inflation, the buyers. I had a friend who was looking for office space for his wife's company. He needed a fairly large space in order to accommodate all of her employees. He found inflated square footage numbers of up to 30% in the commercial listings. This square footage problem is endemic to the real estate industry. I guess the brokers have never figured out that it gives them a bad reputation as liars.

They don't say, "caveat emptor" for nothing.

Trust, but verify.

Yes, it's a pity that you can't trust coop square footages "estimates"; that's why pretty much an intelligent buyer does his own measurements. I think condo figures are "harder" numbers as they are subject to different requirements.

skippy: I don't think you are being fair. The city has 12,000-15,000 apt owners that PROVED to be absolute idiots between 2006-2008. Its not fair to expect a broker to be honest, they have earned the right to be idiots as well. I think what really happens is the following. A disgruntled waitress sits for the agent quiz, scores a 70. Goes to work for big brokerage house, they have a little 20 minute training course. Thats where they teach them to measure sq, footage. They say, take your cute little size 6 1/2 flats, walk heel to toe across the room, keep counting while you are walking, and thats how you measure. Its not their fault, it beats walking the streets.

brokers need to be regulated by the government.

AMEN TO THAT!! They are out-and-out snake oil salesman, and the economy is suffering BIG TIME because a lot of silly people believed them. They should be as regulated as doctors, CPA's, and lawyers. But they aren't -- there "license exams" are a joke and their self-regulatory framework and ethics are pathetic.

I remember getting sneered at by one agent when I pulled out my tape measure and started measuring a few rooms. She told me she had used the best tape measure guy in the city to come up with her square footage numbers, she didn't walk heal to toe. From what I remember, her numbers were accurate, but it is a rarity, I'm afraid.

After I listed my apartment, a friend of mine wrote to me and told me that he thought my apartment was bigger than the square footage number I was quoting. I told him that I got the number out of the coop offering plan. At least I have some reference for my number. Of course, I am at a disadvantage against listings where 650 becomes 750, 750 becomes 900, 900 becomes 1100, etc.

dwayne seriously- brokers introduce buyers to the property.. the economy is where it is not bc of real estate brokers- esp those who work w nyc buyers

talk about uneducated buyers in the middle of the country making 50k a year who have loans for $1m- do u think its their mortgage brokers fault too for that? or real estate brokers.people make their own decisions.. i have never seen a buyer say oh my real estate broker said its a good idea to spend this 2m so therefore i will immediately buy solely based on their advice..

"i have never seen a buyer say oh my real estate broker said its a good idea to spend this 2m so therefore i will immediately buy solely based on their advice.."

No one said that they bought SOLELY on their brokers advice. And, since I'm a personal responsibility freak, I agree that people bear primary responsibity for own their own bad behavior.

However, the idea that shills constantly repeating the same mantra have NO impact on a purchase decision is ridiculous: That's like saying the snake-oil salesman played no role in the sale! They are DIRECTLY responsible for MISLEADING people as to the nature of the product (snake oil will not cure your health problems; real estate will not "keep going up and up" because "they're not making any more land, ya know!" or "millions of foreigners want to live in New York" or "C'mon - ya can't stay on the sidelines forever, ya know!". Shills, tricksters, and con artists exist in nearly every endeavor; real estate is not unique in that respect. What is unique is that, in the nanny-state western civilization we live in the 21st century, where McDonald's is chided and threatened with regulation for serving too many calories in a meal YOU bought, there has been very little in the way of regulation over these particular snake oil salesmen called "realt-whores".

I think the poster failed 3rd grade spelling: broker squatre foot inflation
12 comments
skippy2222
about 10 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse I think that this broker failed third grade math.

anon3
about 9 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse brokers need to be regulated by the government.

I agree, having the government and government employees with total disinterest in the economics of a transaction involved in regulating transactions between adults is a good thing. I suggest the government hire anon3.

Dwayne_Pipe
7 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse What is unique is that, in the nanny-state western civilization we live in the 21st century, where McDonald's is chided and threatened with regulation for serving too many calories in a meal YOU bought, there has been very little in the way of regulation over these particular snake oil salesmen called "realt-whores".

Right, because the buyer can't hire an architect to measure the apartment, because the buyer paying $2MM can't hire an accountant to figure out the sensibility of the purchase (as if he's smart or wealthy enough to be able to affort $2MM apartment and can't do this himself), as if the buyer is so gullible that the entire decision is made by the "industry" and the person in question is handicapped and unable to decide by him or herself, as if the buyer is so stupid that someone referred to as a "realt-whore" is smarter than the buyer and the person considered merely a "realt-whore" tricks the buyer who is dumber than a "realt-whore"

still- i think blaming a real estate broker for convincing u its a deal & then the market goes down is ridiculous- i understand people have their reasons for not liking real estate brokers, but firstly- one - real estate brokers rarely get loyalty- most people assume they are tryingto do the sale- if u are working with an agent as a buyer and demonstrate loyalty, you will soon come to see that comes a long way

and two-n while i in no way think that a mortgage broker is to blame for the subprime problem or the mess we are in, i am shocked u dont pass blame on them before real estate brokers-- refinancing homes for values of more than the property would ever be worth and taking on mortgages for 1m when your income is only 100k- that is what caused this mess

"Right, because the buyer can't hire an architect to measure the apartment, because the buyer paying $2MM can't hire an accountant to figure out the sensibility of the purchase (as if he's smart or wealthy enough to be able to affort $2MM apartment and can't do this himself)"

Complete red-herrings and mis-directions of the sort that give realtors there bad reputation to begin with!

Some buyers can indeed hire an architect, accountant, etc. Many cannot. Your reference to $2M is ridiculous; the vast majority of homes in this country are sold around $200,000. Many of these people ARE strapped for cash and can't spend thousand on architects, accountants, etc. But if you want to persist in your insincerity, fine - I'll be more than happy with a law that more strictly regulates broker mis-representations and know you'll support that law if it has an exclusion for purchases above $2M.

Leaving aside your first logical error (i'm sure 99% of homes sell at a fraction of less than $2M), lets move on to the second: The fact that someone should do his own independent checking does ***NOT*** forgive the offense of misleading someone! Bernie Madoff's victims were all wealthy - should he be excused from his fraud? And then there's the issue that these people may be intelligent in some field, they may be doctors or lawyers, such that they can afford expensive homes -- but though they are intelligent in their field, they are NOT real estate professionals. Someone in the business has an advantage over them, as does a CPA, a lawyer, a doctor, etc. Which is why those fields all RIGOROUSLY self-police and have ethical standards to ensure they maintain a certain proscribed duty of due care in client matters. Realtors have no such rigorous ethical code. Why not?

"n while i in no way think that a mortgage broker is to blame for the subprime problem or the mess we are in, i am shocked u dont pass blame on them before real estate brokers"

I don't absolve mortgage brokers. But, i have a lot less experience with them than realtors. I'll bet i've dealt with 50 realtors in my life. Do you know how many I think were intelligent, ethical, and trustworthy? One...

"I agree, having the government and government employees with total disinterest in the economics of a transaction involved in regulating transactions between adults is a good thing."

Of course, by that logic, we'd need no police, no laws governing the behavior of lawyers, doctors, CPA's, etc.

In reality, those professions are more SELF-REGULATED than gov't regulated! Realtors are completely NOT self-regulated, so the gov't should.

One way you can tell that more gov't intervention is necessary is the collusion surrounding pricing. EVERY REALTOR IN AMERICA GETS THE SAME 6% COMMISSION?? No collusion there. No anti-trust issues. Lol! That's why the NAR fought so madly to prevent their precious MLS and similar services from being opened up. They lost :) Hello internet and, in a few years, goodbye 6%. Hello, 1-2%.

"I remember getting sneered at by one agent when I pulled out my tape measure and started measuring a few rooms."

Brokers love to cop attitudes. Here's a little trick I can share with you that will cure that: When the realt-whore sneers at you, and if no one's looking, pop her in the face! Seriously. Knock her teeth down her throat! She won't be sneering with a mouthful of chicklets, I can assure you!

Easy man, no threats of violence against people in the industry. You have to have a sense of humor about this stuff. Consider real estate to be like the theater of the absurd. You can't expect it to make sense. Square footage is one of those little jokes. Roll with it.

Honestly, the square footage number is not that useful. I have a good feel for the size of apartments just by walking around them. I don't think it is he deciding factor in my mind when I go out looking to buy. Let the agents play their little games. Do the math and figure it out for yourself.

As a buyer, thoroughly research all aspects of the purchase, don't take the agent's word on anything. The agent is not really working for you, remember? Hire a good lawyer.

I think that it is important in a down market and an upmarket for the broker to educate the seller. If the seller says 'the apt is 2200 feet and I want $3.3 mil, I'm asking for $1500 a foot. That is reasonable in this market.' Shouldn't the broker politely or impolitely say 'no way is this 2200 feet. Yes %1500 is a good number, but let's be real. Let's advertise this responsibly and honestly so that buyers can actually compare one place to another. Otherwise, this is a waste of time for me.' If the square foot info originated with the broker, then I feel sorry for the dumb seller, who will be wasting time on the market.

"Easy man, no threats of violence against people in the industry. You have to have a sense of humor about this stuff."

That's exactly what I was doing. It's like that Doritos Super Bowl commercial, where the boss gets hit in the groin, and everybody laughs: The thought of realtors in phyical pain is funny to me, sort of like Dante, if he were writing today, would have a special level in hell for them.

"Consider real estate to be like the theater of the absurd. You can't expect it to make sense. Square footage is one of those little jokes. Roll with it." I do consider it that way. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't clean it up. There's a long history in this country, starting with Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", of progressive reform of those industries that exploit people. Realt-whores fit the bill en masse. They should be happy I propose to regulate - that will take the edge off people's hatred of them. Because the alternative is what i've espoused above. Then, realtors will need physical protection: VARA -- the Violence Against Realtors Act. So the gov't will be involved one way or the other.

i love this thread, this is a great example of a lower cost one:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/194210-coop-250-west-27th-street-chelsea-new-york

i know i posted this one before, but its still for sale, and i think everyone is wise to the sf inflation.

i looked at one in this building with the same foot print before and they were trying to say it was 800 sf. i took a tape measure to it and if i was generous, it was about 650sf. when i brought it up to the broker, he said "well it 'feels' like 800 sf"
i thought to myself (shoulda said it while i was there) "well it 'feels' like i'm getting ripped off"

i wish there was some way to regulate this, but all we can do is use it to bargain with the price and never trust the listed square footage. if you need some one to certify the sf, let me know, i have a pe, not that thats such a big deal, but it might add some credibility to the sf-descrepency-bargaining-power.

This is one of the reasons why I will never look at a new development again. At least with an existing building you can see the apartment and what it "feels like". When you finally see your "1100sf" new apartment and realize that it "feels" half the size of your 1000sf rental, there's not much you can do about it.

i thought to myself (shoulda said it while i was there) "well it 'feels' like i'm getting ripped off"

Again, just another reason why there ought to be Realtor Season along with Duck Season and Rabbitt season! "Mzzzz. Realtor, I'm gonna shoot you with a 12 gauge...but you can pretend "it feels like" I'm paying you an inflated double-bubble commission".

Where's Elmer Fudd when you need him? "Shhhhh. Be vwerry vwerry quiet! I'm hunting wealt-whores. Huh-huh-huh-huh-huh!!"

I can see why that apartment on West 27th is still for sale. There are only two windows on the end of the apartment. That place has got to be a dark, uninviting hole, sorry, loft. Look at that, they went out at over $175k above the market and still have not found a buyer after numerous price cuts. Lying about the square footage is not going to sell that apartment.

Fine, I'll plug my listing, in case somebody on here has not seen it. You'll be happy in the sunlight. I know I am. Everybody who walks in the door is blown away by the light from the windows in every room. My place has two exposures.

http://web.me.com/mac.hive/407PAS/18B.html

my broker once told me he was out of tape and had to use his 9" personal measurement tool. Sure enough, square footage was overstated by about 40%

"my broker once told me he was out of tape and had to use his 9" personal measurement tool."

LMAO.

you mean linear footage was overstated by 40%

"brokers need to be regulated by the government." And the government does such a great job looking over what they do regulate!! All this does is add another layer which costs the taxpayers more and does not eradicate the problem. There are many very good people who work in government but for others including the "management" it goes with the old saying, Those who can do, those who can"t teach or work for the government. And I have worked for the government.

"All this does is add another layer which costs the taxpayers more and does not eradicate the problem."

You know what? I like your idea better. Let's simply "eradicate the problem". Realtors.

The problem is, rounding them all up. I hope you can do that for me. Then, I'll pour lighter fluid on them and you can do the honors...

Someone who hates brokers as much as I do. He even stole my word realt-whore.

patient09 -- yes, that's what I meant :)

407PAS-looks like you have a nice place. I agree, lots of light and I kind of like the hood Why is the maint so high? High underlying mortgage on the bldg? or is it a land lease? I like the bldg, but I am looking for more space than a one bedroom.

I looked at a coop today. It was interesting to hear the broker say, "according to the architect the square footage is..." This was a way of ostensibly avoiding any possible legal liability for the broker.

skippy2222,
Yes, there is a relatively high underlying mortgage on the building which we were able to refinance last year for a substantial savings. The board has taken the position to use the savings to try to keep the maintenance steady as we go forward. Our maintenance has not gone up in the last three years and there is no increase in 2009. Of course, there are no guarantees on any building in the city, as far as increases, but I do feel that my building has a stable cost structure. We also have a high deductibility percentage in the maintenance, greater than comparable buildings.

Feel free to send the link to anyone you know who is looking for a one bedroom. Thanks.

407PAS: Place looks hot. I know you will hate to hear this but I am certain there would be a quick sale with broker participation.

While it is true that brokers in many cases overstate the square footage, the resposibility also rests with the buyers to calculate the square footage before they consider buying. There are too many buyers who do not think of price per real square foot. With the falling real estate prices, it may change soon.

"the resposibility also rests with the buyers to calculate the square footage"

Right. Or, we could just regulate it so that brokers arent allowed to LIE! When you buy food at the supermarket, and it says it has 170 calories per serving and 3 grams of fat, how would you feel if it actually had 947 calories and 72 grams of fat? Does the "responsibility rest with the buyer to calculate" the calories themselves? What about when you buy a used car, and the odometer says it has 27,000 miles but really it has 227,000 miles - does the responsibility rest with the buyer to calculate" the mileage. NO! The responsibility rests with the good-for-nothing realtor to NOT LIE.

I have a simple fix for this: One strike and you're out. You lie, you lose your license. See how fast those lying realtor lips close!

get off your ego on hating brokers

firstly- that is why a buyer should be repped by a buyers broker they feel comfortable with so they can look into past comps and even get a copy of the offering plan on their own before it even goes into contract.. and 2ndly... what industry doesnt like- should we trust all things politicans say now? ohh and does your accountant help you lie a tiny bit on your taxes... this is the city- each person is out for themselves- it is a lot harder for a broker to lie theese days than u realize- that is why u have an accountant to do due diligence, ohh and streeteasy... get over your hatred for them

get over your hatred for them

Get over apologizing for them. Or yourself. People HATE realt-whores (see comments above, and on about 5000 other threads!). They hate them because they trust them less than any other profession except maybe used car dealer.

Do people hate florists?

Dp people hate dentists?

Do people hate accountants?

Do people hate doctors?

Nope. They may sometimes resent what they charge, but they don't say "they are all snakes and I hate them". People HATE realtors. Instead of telling me to "get over" it, YOU need to accept that because that reality isn't going away!

You know what the beauty of streeteasy is? It gives realtors, or potential realtors, an honest look into what people think about them. I think realtors are the type that easily buy into self-delusion and say "oh, there may be a few people who don't like us - why, i bet they're just jealous of us!".

But look at streeteasy: Hundreds, maybe thousands of threads, and certainly many thousands or tens of thousands of posts, about how people HATE realtors! Some are really explicit (like the really funny post above about dousing lighter fluid on them!). Some are simply scornful. Some, like the thread that started this, are mocking ("I think that this broker failed third grade math.") Some are confirmational,like the post above ("Someone who hates brokers as much as I do)".

There's no place to hide in the face of this realtors, no face-saving way to pretend the public doesn't feel this way about you. Thousands or maybe tens of thousands of posts! Essentially wishing YOU weren't around. What can the future possibly be for that profession?

Easy now Dwayne, you don't have to hate all the realtors in one night...

If I recall correctly, the real estate scam in Upton Sinclair's book, "The Jungle", had to do with tricking newly arrived immigrants into thinking they were buying their shoddy homes, when they were actually signing long term leases at high prices.

That old trick is gone, the new trick seems to be getting buyers to sign contracts with loan terms, whose risks they do not truly understand. I thought truth in lending disclosures were supposed to eliminate this kind of abuse but it doesn't seem to be working well.

There was an article in the Times where they followed a woman through the purchase process. After she closed on the house, they asked her how she felt about signing up for an adjustable rate mortgage. She said that she had signed for a fixed rate mortgage. I do not recall whether she was bait and switched or whether she just did not understand the terms written in the contract.

Irony of the original post in this thread: BHS has a policy against quoting co-op square footage. Maitland sneaked her estimate into the body of the listing because that's the only place she could put it.

West81st,
Now, that's funny, why in the world did she not just follow the policy and leave off the square footage? I'm still cracking up over the only photograph from the apartment, the one that shows the corner of the fireplace and the mantle. She needs to have a few better shots taken of the apartment. Still, in my gut, I think this apartment is in 'estate condition', but who knows..

What does "estate condition" mean? Old and unkempt?

Yes, usually estate condition means a wreck that had not been updated in decades. Whether it is a true estate or not is a open question.

Some broker phrases to tip you off:

"Bring your architect"
"Bring your interior designer"
"Customize your own space"

Dwayne_Pipe
about 17 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse "the resposibility also rests with the buyers to calculate the square footage"

Right. Or, we could just regulate it so that brokers arent allowed to LIE! When you buy food at the supermarket, and it says it has 170 calories per serving and 3 grams of fat, how would you feel if it actually had 947 calories and 72 grams of fat?

Right, last time I went to the grocery store I spent $23, and the largest single item cost $9. Great comparison

"Right, last time I went to the grocery store I spent $23, and the largest single item cost $9. Great comparison"

Actually it's probably a pretty good comparison. I spend $250 per week on food. So, about $1,000 a month or $12,000 per year. If I live to be 80, that's $960,000 in food -- not counting inflation, which will certainly increase the value of what i'll spend on food in my life to between $1 -2 million dollars. Or roughly what a house would cost me. On top of that, if I don't watch the fat content of what I eat, I'll probably need to spend more on open heart surgery.

What was your point again?

Oh, ok, with that math, it actually does make sense. lol
ps - not fooling anyone trying to pretend Admiral and Dwayne pipe are different people.
1 - both call people realwhores
2 - are both attracted to this particular discussion and have nearly identical points of view and 100% alignment in their defense of each other
3 - have both posted very violent and tasteless statements on streeteasy directed at realtors
4 - both "hate" realtors
5 - have that funny elmer fudd way of talking. See above for Dwayne. See previous post from Admiral "pretending" to be Barney Frank

Oh, of course. I haven't heard THAT on every blog I've ever been on: "There's not 1,000 diff't people on this blog who hate George Bush...it's just ONE GUY who's registered a thousand times!". So, am I all the other people who hate realtors, too? Am I all the other people who think real estate in Manhattan is going to decline 50% or more?

Here's a google search for the word realt-whore. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS309US309&q=realt+whores

Over 1.1M hits. I'm all of them, too! Also, if you search the words "con artist", "shyster", etc - I'm all those people, too.

Well, if that's all true, then YOU owe me a lot of money! I'm the ONLY person on earth who has said Manhattan real estate would decline, AND I'm the only person to warn this board about realtors, AND i'm the only person to make fun of Barney Fwank. I mean, you owe me thousands of dollars for all this work i'm doing!

Look, you can spew all the hatred you want. Nothing will change unless the buyers start having the courage to sell their own apartments. Unfortunately, most New Yorkers do not seem to be up to the challenge. They hire people to perform the silliest jobs for them, dog walking, for instance, and are incapable of changing a light bulb or painting an apartment.

Nevertheless, some people are going it alone, as is their right in a free country.

convincing.

Can we now get Dwayne Pipe's denial?

Admiral is totally me. He copied everything I ever said; it's all my material.

I guess the 2200 sq.ft. claim didn't fool anyone. 115 CPW #15K was just reduced another $425K, to $2.85MM: http://www.bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=535231

There was an open house at lunchtime today. I wonder if anyone showed up.

I think most brokers estimate square footage. Good rule no matter what they say take 20% off the listed sq footage and you'll be in the ballpark.

115 CPW #15K

1600 sqft
renovation 1600*400=$640,000
completed valu 1600*850=$1,360,000

current value $1,360,000-$640,000= $720,000 not a penny more

eesh...

it's 1600 sqft and the broker advertises 2,200? if i were a broker, i would want to kick this broker in the head. why won't brokers police themselves, or at least the larger firms? this kind of nonsense just makes it more difficult to sell anything.

Wow, you guys act surprised! I have lived four different places in Manhattan, and virtually every place I saw (for rent or to buy) was at LEAST 25% smaller than advertised. And brokers ALWAYS lie about square footage. Only rental agents working for the property manager (mostly) tell the truth. Even "reputable" companies like Corcoran, Prudential and Halstead greatly exaggerate square footage on virtually ALL of their Manhattan rental and for sale listings. What I have been waiting for for YEARS is a broker to explain why or how this works. Crickets.

Offers the buyer the perfect way to cut a price.
Get far down the road with the seller who has listed square footage.
Then ask to bring your architect in.
Architect measures lower square footage.
Oops, this apartment was misrepresented. No way I can continue at the price we were talking about before, but we are so close to closing ...

totally agree pelumer
except for that fact that an engineer can do measure it also. if its nearby, i'll do it for free, i've had it with this phenomenon. no where else is there such an inflation of square footage, its complete deception, and no accountability by these "professionals".
if i could do some similar thing with bankers i'd offer it for free, but for now, i'll certify a square footage for free.

Wow, brokers comment on EVERYTHING else on these boards, but silence on this topic. I think we have a winner.

The solution is simple. Make brokers and sellers legally responsible for the accuracy of the information they disseminate. They sold you a 1200sf apartment that is 1000sf? A few winning lawsuits for damages and they will cease. I include sellers because they KNOW the numbers are inflated and go along with it anyway.

This is a scam, it is fraud and decpetion, it is highly unethical, and should be illegal. If a gas station charged you for a gallon of gas and gave you 3 quarts, they'd be fined or arrested. Should be the same with brokers/sellers.

Several of the examples given in this thread are co-ops, right?

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but you are buying a portion of the entire building (not just your apartment) when you buy a co-op; thus the total square footage includes not only the apartment but "shared" communal space.

Condos (especially new construction) are another story, where the square footage should be very accurate and apartment specific. (Again, I could be wrong...)

In the case of co-ops, brokers should break apart the specific apartment square footage and the communal square footage so buyers have a clearer understanding of what they really are going to live in.

I think most buyers don't give a hoot about the communal sq ft. All listings should include a line item of "livable sq ft"..In addition to number of rooms, does it have a kitchen, etc,,etc,,..The reason they don't list sq ft (which is probably the single most important aspect of an apt) is due to laziness and purposely misleading buyers to the agents potential benefit.

I pulled my square footage out of the coop offering plan. It does not include the common areas. I have had some friends say that my place felt bigger than the number I quoted but I used the published number and not something I made up in my head. I would like to see a source for these square footage numbers, an official document or a licensed measurement expert. It would be nice to have a more level playing field.

square footage of an apartment should not, does not reflect communal space. that is a farfetched idea...would you include the basement? the hallways of every floor or just your floor? the lobby?!!! give me a break. this is exactly like the food companies resisting putting the nutritional info on the labels years ago. if a real estate broker cannot measure square footage they should find another job.

I think almost every buyer knows that the square footage may be overstated. Give that, I fail to understand why most buyers do not bring a measuring tape or a laser device, which only costs ~$100, to the open house and protest loudly if the square footage is not real. Most places can be easily measured as opposed to calories in a candy bar. If more buyers were pro-active, the brokers will stop mis-stating the square footage.

What is the best way to estimate accurate square footage? Is it as easy as multiplying the displayed dimensions of the room, plus adding some % extra for the bathrooms, closets, etc?

or better yet...measure those other spaces as well.

"every buyer knows that the sq footage may be overstated?" really...may or is? and by how much?

rather than have the broker measure once (accurately), better to have each individual come with a tape measure? why? if its so easy for each potential buyer to measure why isn't it easy for the broker?

why bother listing the actual maintainance charges? why not estimate--a little lower, then have each potential buyer call the managing agent?

and we wonder why things are the way they are?

I agree measuring is the preferred route, but as a means of estimating from floorplans (as a method of weeding out places that aren't worth the time of seeing) is there any reaonsable method?

yes....if plans are to scale...just make squares and measure based on overall apt footprint

Problem is with apartments with round walls or octagonal living rooms, etc. I have seen a few of those.

Still, no broker defense of this? So we can all safely assume that even Corcoran, Prudential, and Halstead brokers are a bunch of lying slime bags when they list CONDOS (not just coops) with the square footage doubled from reality? Just peruse the floorplans on their websites, measure outside walls to outside walls, true up from inches to feet, and you will see that I am right. There, I said it. Brokers are scum when it comes to this. no defense?

Well, I'm certainly not going to defend myself against being called a scum, but here's my take from my blog:
http://nychousewhisperer.blogspot.com/2008/12/square-footage-myth.html

Boss77 said: I agree measuring is the preferred route, but as a means of estimating from floor plans (as a method of weeding out places that aren't worth the time of seeing) is there any reasonable method?

A couple of times the apartments we wanted to see didn't have any dimensions on the website floor plan.
We called the representing broker and asked for the correct room dimensions and say we don't like to waste our time or yours.

They'll give you the room dimensions along with any qualifying info.

I know this extra step is an inconvenience and you may say this is just an extra waste of time. Not really when you consider how much more time you'd waste if you went to see it without asking, only to find out the measurements were “skewed.”

Anyone repping an apartment, whether broker or owner should see to it that room dimensions are accurate. And they will be happy to give the correct dimensions if you ask. If you sense otherwise, maybe find another place to visit or visit if it's near another apt you're checking out.

I don't want to get into outside wall measurement or how much your share of common space went into calculating square footage. Most of us are never going to do major renos where we'll have to exhaust every available space behind walls, etc.

Bring a tape measure to the place. If you forget your tape measure, pace it out. I think about 3 feet for a decent pace. Make sure your furniture fits.

My broker added about 50 square feet to my apartment. When I called her on it she just smiled. So when it sold the costs per square feet seemed much less than they really were as it was a small apartment to begin with

I expect square feet to be misrepresented as yes they add the common space, the outside walls, the elevator if you happen to live next to one

so...what's the bottom line. impossible to calculate? or better to cheat?

my favorite is the round wall comment above. i am happy to exempt all apartments from this measurement that have round walls.

I will help anyone that wants the round wall calculation. Got a B- in Geometry.

Measuring Sq Footage - For most loft it is very simple. Many lots are 25*85 outside walls to outside walls. These are marketed as at least 2100 sq ft. However, one needs to subtract the thickness of external walls which will typically leave 22*82=1800 sq ft. From this subtract the stairs and elevator which are typically another 100-150 sq ft. Real 1650-1700 sq ft.

Per the above comment - what I find even in CONDO listings from the "reputable" brokers is that listings like you describe would actually be listed as 2500-3000 square feet. With 2100 square feet you can disern from the floorplan, and 1700 of actual, useable space. Its how a clearly 2100 SF at MOST unit can be listed as 2700 that boggles my mind. Here is real example from halstead. See if you can explan how they arrive at the square footage for 2280FBD - especially for the top floor units. The top floor units are listed at like 1600 SF, but their FULL ROOF terraces above at 1100. Where did the extra 500 SF go? If you measure from outside wall to ooutside wall on the residential flooplan - viola, they are really 1100 SF.

http://www.2280fdb.com/index2.html#plan

Ditto for the Fitzgerald:

http://www.thefitzgeraldcondos.com/

Again, the roof terraces are magically much smaller than the identically sized residences below.

Thanks nshipley - at last at least broker says SOMETHING on the topic! So the bottom line is, if you are obsesssed with SF, bring a tape measure or laser yourself.

From nshipley's blog, a good article on the topic:

http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/playing-the-game-of-inches-in-measuring-square-footage

great links jason, would still offer a certified measurement for free (i just want to see how it can play out with an offer).

"So we can all safely assume that even Corcoran, Prudential, and Halstead brokers are a bunch of lying slime bags?"

You needed this thread to confirm that for you?

"my favorite is the round wall comment above. i am happy to exempt all apartments from this measurement that have round walls."

I can see it now: "Hey George...you told Michelle and I this oval office was 2,000 square feet! It can't be more than 1,500 sq ft, as we can barely fit all our new-age liberal ideas in here!"

hey...i said exempting round walls...not oval walls!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/388225-coop-195-adams-street-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

I realize this is a minor case if inflation, but if you're going to say "900 square feet" in the listing, shouldn't you erase the stated square footage on the floorplan that says "863 square feet"?

Sorry, 834 square feet. I can't read today!

"Well, I'm certainly not going to defend myself against being called a scum, but here's my take from my blog"

And what gems did we gleen from this realtors' blog? How about this one:

"Brokers for a long time simply "estimated" the square footage of an apartment, and these numbers became part of the myth of individual buildings. It didn't matter whether they were accurate or not, it was apocryphal yet accepted.

Until the lawsuit."

I.e., it's all good, until you get sued. Broker logic: Priceless! For everything else, there's MasterCard...

Well to be fair to nshipley, I was RHETORICALLYasking IF we should name call brokers just so I could get someone like her to say SOMETHING...her blog (his blog?) makes it seem like s/he at least is in touch with reality, unlike so many brokers on these boards.

"her blog (his blog?) makes it seem like s/he at least is in touch with reality, unlike so many brokers on these boards."

I dunno. Comments like "It didn't matter whether they were accurate or not, it was apocryphal yet accepted" seem a little out there to me. What if your boss caught you turning in a report that was way, way off -- just totally inaccurate? Could YOU say "It didn't matter whether they were accurate or not, it was apocryphal yet accepted." Me either.

But s/he at least admits that brokers do/did inflate an offers an explanation, and also condems the practice. Most brokers would simply deny the problem exists.

When Nan states that coop sf claims "didn't matter whether they were accurate or not", she is speaking about the past - a very different moment in NYC real estate. Before people became fanatical about square footage, they relied on other metrics to estimate value. In an established coop that value would be calculated in the number of shares. One way to determine the value a co-op places on its own units is to look at the maintenance. If one 500sf studio has a maintenance of $627, and another 500sf studio on the same floor has a maintenance of $713, chances are something - exposures, number of windows, size of closet space - makes those 500sf "better" than the other. Nowadays, a bank may not see it that way, though. Now that mortgages, appraisals, and resale are tied squarely to actual measured square footage, there is very little wiggle room in this area.

Great post Nan.

Here's my take: http://www.frontporchllc.com/

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Hey Ali G - I looked at your stupid blog and your predictable (non)answer to the question.

You want to know what the real answer is? What every reputable profession on the planet has managed to do with similar issues? It's called an INDUSTRY STANDARD. Reputable industries tend to self-regulate on matters like this so as to maintain and improve their reputation with the public. CPA's, CFA's, lawyers, etc all do this. Realt-whores? Not a chance.

GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!

Well, I am not so harsh. Front porch also at least acknowledges its a problem, which most brokers don't. However, I agree with admiral that the REBNY ought to have a standard for BOTH coops and condos - I would suggest all must list total square feet (including pro-rata share of shared space and outdoor space), interrior square feet (inside wall to inside wall including staircases etc) and USEABLE square feet - including just the actual are you would have to tile, floor, or carpet. Their should be a SPEREATE and fourth listing for purely private exterior usable space.

bump:

Dwayne_Pipe
about 4 months ago
ignore this person
report abuse i thought to myself (shoulda said it while i was there) "well it 'feels' like i'm getting ripped off"

Again, just another reason why there ought to be Realtor Season along with Duck Season and Rabbitt season! "Mzzzz. Realtor, I'm gonna shoot you with a 12 gauge...but you can pretend "it feels like" I'm paying you an inflated double-bubble commission".

Where's Elmer Fudd when you need him? "Shhhhh. Be vwerry vwerry quiet! I'm hunting wealt-whores. Huh-huh-huh-huh-huh!!"