Sale at 201 East 80th Street #12C

How long have you been a broker?

Since it's 400 sf smaller than it's listed for, has over $3,000/month charges and a stupid picture of bananas, I think you should definitely offer twice the asking price.....maybe three times the asking price. You don't want to insult the owners or the broker after all.

Awesome! 2 bed for 2.3 on UES and not PS 6...that is unbelievable Beepops

WAVERLY - Would you please be willing to educate the crowd and describe how one can verify square footage vs. a listing?

" These owners have considered current market conditions."

Right, I would write that if I were anyone but the broker.

Beepops: If you're going to shill for two completely different Halstead postings within an hour, the least you could do is use different handles.

I know this building, pretty nice, if you are in this lifestyle, you will love the neighborhood.

1500 sq ft

1500 * 850 = $1,275,000
plus $42,250 for the terrace
minus $144,000 because maintenance is too high

total price $1,173,250 good luck...peace

by the way, if that terrace is 13 x 13, i'm nine feet tall.

unrealestate, with the layout it is extremely unlikely (although not impossible) that the unit is 1750 sf. Similar 2/2.5 units built in this time frame are almost always around or under 1500 sf. Given that the broker has removed the room dimensions from the floorplan, one immediately suspects the worst, which is probably correct.

I think patient09 has it right, somewhere b/t 1400-1500 sf. Price estimate is spot-on as well.

dimensions are still on floor plan at broker site. take a look
http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1683981

Absurd comment by beepops. That apartment is priced above all comps in that building (among other things). They should be happy if it sells for 60% of ask. And clearly you are a broker, because no one would make such dumb comments. Sorry for being blunt.

Don't forget to mention the outdated kitchen and low ceilings

Note to broker: Do not use the same flower arrangement or bowl of fruit in multiple pictures. What is this - an art class?

I AM THE BROKER FOR THIS LISTING. BEVERLY H. FEINGOLD, V.P. Halstead 212-381-2338
The precise square footage of this property is 1732 square feet, interior space, PLUS 169 square feet (13 X 13) exterior. This is as per the original Offering Plan, published by the builder, 11 years ago when the current owners purchased the apartment.

Dear Waverly,
I have been a broker for nearly 20 years.
How old are you??? Have you been around that long?

Dear Unrealestate,
To check square footage, you look at the original building documents. You call the managing agent, Brown Harris Stevens or you ask the broker who is obligated by law to give you the accurate information. FYI...true square footage is not measured simply by calculating the interior space of the rooms. One needs an Architect or Engineer to obtain accurate, legal dimensions and square footage.

Dear Columbia County,
Congratulations...you must be 9 feet tall.
Thank you...the dimensions of the rooms are on the floor plan, on the Halstead Website and have always been.

Dear AbatementBS,
The ceilings are 9'. 6" higher than average for postwar buildings.

Dear UES _Buyer and Patient 09,
According to the site you are writing on, the average price per square foot in this building is on, March 14, 2009 $1082 per square (which is by no means the best source for this information). That makes the value of the interior space worth $1,874,024.00. The value of the terrace is not easy to calculate...that depends on how nice and well situated the terrace is and how much the buyer desires the outdoor space. In this case I would estimate the value is half that of the interior space...$541 per sq ft X 169= $91,429.00...$1,874,024.00 plus $91,429 = $1,965,453.00. Since pricing is and has never been an exact science one takes into consideration, light, the feeling of the space, the juxtapositions of the rooms...there is no way to scientifically price this. Needless to say you can all see that 60%less than ask is absurd.

TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE MADE COMMENTS ON THIS SITE....HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY BEEN INSIDE THE APARTMENT? It is so obvious that none of you have really seen it.

I challenge any of you to find me 1 true comparable, for this apartment, that is priced lower than this one. If any of you can I will ask the owners to lower their price.

What's with the breakfast set-up on the kitchen radiator and windowsill? The dining table is two feet away, yet somebody'd choose to drape a rag over the HVAC unit, pull up a couple of stools, figure out where to put their knees, and eat there?

Hello Beverly,
Nice looking apartment, I especially like the corner living room with all those windows. I think the confusion over the dimensions of the balcony comes from people thinking that the interior width is 13 feet but it is the exterior width, so you need to include the building wall, as can be seen from the floor plan.

Thanks for quoting the square footage from the offering plan, that is something I have done in my listing for my apartment. I would like to see the attribution "as per offering plan", on more listings. Inflated square footage numbers provoke a lot of anger, as you have probably gathered from reading discussions on this board. I think the square footage number should be left off the listing if it cannot be substantiated.

I won't comment on price. Let's see what the market says. Good luck with the sale.

I have to agree with NWT on the breakfast set-up on the HVAC unit. I noticed that as well and thought it was weird. It wouldn't hurt to yank that photo.

Dear feingirl,

I've been to this apartment. It's a giant, giant, giant load of steamy hot sh$t. Overpriced steamy hot sh&t. I hate to tell you, but the days of leaching 6% off unsustainably high selling prices are over.

I'd missed this thread when it came and went two weeks ago. Can't imagine why Beverly would resuscitate it after all that time, given West81st's spotting somebody's shill attempt. With that and the general tenor re: the apartment you'd think its broker would let the thread stay dead.

I think any broker who would picture breakfast on an HVAC unit should be replaced immediately with someone who has a clue. That may be the dumbest staged picture I have ever seen in a listing.

And to top it off, the idiot broker posts on SE that the place is worth, at best, 15% less than asking. Way to negotiate, let's tell the world my price is way too high.

And I suspect she is lying about the ssquare footage, and if she really believes this: "or you ask the broker who is obligated by law to give you the accurate information" then she may be even dumber than I first thought.

This is right below her picture:

All information is from sources deemed reliable but is subject to errors, omissions, changes in price, prior sale or withdrawal without notice. No representation is made as to the accuracy of any description. All measurements and square footages are approximate and all information should be confirmed by customer.

So her own firm is saying we don't have to gave you anything accurate, in direct contrast to what she just posted.

If the seller is reading this you should really have a talk with your broker, or maybe just throw her and the bananas out the door.

"true square footage is not measured simply by calculating the interior space of the rooms."

Sure it is. What you are saying is that accepted practice in NYC is for lying thieving brokers and sellers to inflate the true square footage and then repeat some big lie to try to get people to believe you. You should be going to jail for fraud if there were justice in the world.

NWT: "Can't imagine why Beverly would resuscitate it after all that time, given West81st's spotting somebody's shill attempt. With that and the general tenor re: the apartment you'd think its broker would let the thread stay dead."

She's an idiot. That's why.

modern: "What you are saying is that accepted practice in NYC is for lying thieving brokers and sellers to inflate the true square footage and then repeat some big lie to try to get people to believe you."

modern, you are absolutely right.

Beverly, good luck with business this year. I'm sure that your income with adequately reflect the value you add.

breakfast on the hvac is the funniest listing picture i've ever seen.

You mean you don't eat on top of the hvac?? Keeps the food warm during the winter, and the drinks cold during the summer...

WRITTEN BY: BEVERLY H. FEINGOLD, 212 381-2338 THE SALES BROKER FOR THIS PROPERTY

No, the practice of calculating square footage in Condos IS a science, that is handled by experts.
Brokers can only, by law quote the numbers that the experts give us or we lose our license.
I have given you my source for the square footage.

You confuse coops and condos...there is a difference you know???

Dear NWT and 407PAS,
The reason for the stools near the window? Originally, this part of what is now the kitchen, was a Breakfast Room. Anyone looking at the floor plan, who understood NY apartments, I thought might easily see this.
My belief was this picture would articulate the point that it could again be a small eating area.
It obviously hasn't worked.
Thank you for your constructive comment. I will remove this picture first thing Monday.

Dear Modern,
You are obviously a very unhappy, angry person, with nothing better to do with your Saturday Night than sit home and look at pictures of apartments you wish you could afford to buy. Way to go...bad mouth what you crave...that's the way to get even with the world.

AGAIN, I CHALLENGE ANY OF YOU TO FIND ME A SINGLE REAL COMPARABLE THAT HAS SOLD FOR LESS IN THE PAST 6 MONTHS OR THAT IS ON THE MARKET FOR LESS.
IF YOU CAN I WILL ASK THE OWNERS TO LOWER THE PRICE.

MY REASON FOR WRITING TODAY???
Unfortunately there are some unsuspecting buyers who read this site and actually take it seriously.

IF YOU ARE A SERIOUS BUYER, please call me and come take a look at this lovely apartment.
I sold it to the current owners, who have lived here, very happily for 11 years.
In addition, they obviously, have been more than satisfied with my services. Why else go back to the person who sold you the apartment to begin with...no better reference than that, is there?
Hopefully you can tell, by most of the comments, from these ANONYMOUS people, that they know no more about New York City Real Estate than someone living 1000 miles away.
I invite you, PLEASE COME SEE AND MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.

Hmmm Feingirl, do you know where are you posting? If so, I will advise you not to write things like ¨Unfortunately there are some unsuspecting buyers who read this site and actually take it seriously.¨ This might make you lose your buyers...and spend a lot of time defending yourself...
I really appreciate SE because people here helped me a lot. If it wasn't for this site, I would have followed a realtor advice 6 months ago. I was an unsuspecting buyer who actually took the realtor seriously....

Dear Mimi,
Have you read some of the above comments?
They are reckless and easily said, when those saying them do not have to own what they say.
No need to tell me about unscrupulous brokers...of course I know they exist.
But how do people dare to comment on something they have never seen.
I won't be defending myself, because I won't be checking the site very often.
I will, however check in from time to time, to defend the owners of 201 E 80th Street, 12C, who stand to be very hurt by, I will say it again, the reckless nature of the comments, made by people who have not seen the apartment and have never set foot in the building.

Waverly, it is quite hard to believe that a person that loves an apt and is about to make an offer would alert other thousand potential buyers in SE. If that was true, then you ar quite unlucky...the post has the word broker written all over it...Maybe it was posted by the owners and now they are suffering the consequences.

"But how do people dare to comment on something they have never seen. "

Bev,
That is a ridiculous statement. If one finds the photos unappealing, why would one go see an apt?

Don't forget that this thread began because bepops was touting this apt. That opened the door to comments & possible ridicule. In case you didn't realize it, opinions are given freely on this board & feelings can be hurt. It's best not to tout apts here.

anything goes on or is that in the internet ;-)

I don't understand the need for the vulgar attacks. You don't have to like the price. If you can post a comp, post a comp. Mimi is right, if somebody finds a nice apartment at a good price and wants to bid on it, I doubt they're going to post something on here to alert other people to its existence.

There is a lot of good information on this board and there are many helpful people. The good people are relentless at tracking down the truth. They saved one of my friends from investing in a mortgage scam operation in Florida. Sometimes I get frustrated with the nasty attacks but other times I learn something new and participate in some good discussions.

Anonymous boards are a double-edged sword. Anybody can slur anybody else's listing. The only thing that balances this out are the people who argue the opposing view. Anybody can say whatever they want, but they had better be able to defend their position or they will be attacked.

I like the part in the listing.."PRICED TO SELL", big mistake putting it in bold. 2 months passes, no sale, now time to lower the price. So what to do? How do you type in super bold print "PRICED TO SELL"? Or do say, "NO SERIOUSLY, NOW IT IS PRICED TO SELL". Maybe by summer we go to AR's strategy.

I am not an expert on the UES and am dying to see someone respond to the broker's challenge re: comps. So far the critical posts seem pretty gratuitous: sq footage (if it is out of the offering prospectus) is what it is (condos always seem inflated because they include all sorts of crap in the number that isn't livable); the HVAC pic was bizarre and stupid, but that hasn't anything to do with price; the shilling in post #1 is transparent, but still, has no bearing on price...

Come on Streeteasy mavens! Find those comps!! The broker has thrown down the gauntlet and no one is touching it. Cut through the drama, and she is (I'm trying not to choke) ... proving her point and making you all look like petty snipers.

kyle: you are right. I thought nobody took her up on it because it was a joke, there are 50-100 properties that fit the bill. Attached is one, cheaper, bigger, better, cleaner. nuff said.

http://www.prudentialelliman.com:80/1063991

This is almost directly across the street from 201 E 80th -- and a mere $1,000,000 cheaper.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/87536-condo-1438-third-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

I don't know enough about this niche to find my own comps, but according to Streeteasy,
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/379811-condo-305-east-85th-street-yorkville-new-york
This is the first comp they list. The price is close, but I like the 2nd bathroom location much better, and there's even a 3rd one. I didn't add up the square footage. Anyone want to comment on whether this is a good comp? Also, I'm not saying that this one is correctly priced either. To me, all these places still seem totally out of whack.
Beverly, you should be careful not to let your anger at the other posters get the best of you. You are the professional, and this is, for the most part, an anonymous board.
The photos of the place you listed are very nice. I don't agree with the poster about the kitchen needing work, I think it looks lovely and classic. Just because it's not filled with the latest fads doesn't mean it wouldn't be perfect for someone.

Also, my first comment on this thread (2 weeks ago) was not qualitative, in fact, I like the building, have been in it several times. I was merely commenting on the facts. F2 is overstated. The full rectangle is 70 x 25 = 1,750. minus 169 for the terrrace, minus the nooks and crannys. To suggest anything otherwise, irrespective of other legal documents is, well, not honest. I also believe north of $1,000 per f2 in this hood, in this building, in this market, is a reach.

AGAIN, I CHALLENGE ANY OF YOU TO FIND ME A SINGLE REAL COMPARABLE THAT HAS SOLD FOR LESS IN THE PAST 6 MONTHS OR THAT IS ON THE MARKET FOR LESS.
IF YOU CAN I WILL ASK THE OWNERS TO LOWER THE PRICE.

note the comps above...how soon will we see the lower price?

p.s. need to reiterate what many others here have said---breakfast on the HVAC gets my vote for at least 10 three stupidest RE pictures I have ever seen. good work with that.

This property eats that property for lunch.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367664-coop-501-east-79th-street-yorkville-new-york
Nice try Bev.
I would go with the big price drop and try for the fast sale before this apt. is swallowed by the inventory quick-sand.

Man o man, how stupid are we. Bev can't convince client to lower price because of internet ineptitude. So we do the work for her. She will then instruct client to read the posts, client lowers to 1.7mm. Someone bids 1.0mm. Deal gets struck at 1.2mm. Bev played us all like a piano. Bev, aka...playa! Yea, we can hang you Bev.

This is tough to price. That terrace makes it unique in the building.

14C, though, is pretty close. One floor up, same interior footprint, same 1722 square feet (per the condo declaration,) but without the terrace. Let's assume the kitchen and baths are in the same untouched-since-1997 but clean condition as 12C's. In 1997, the developer considered the terrace and valued 12C at about 2% more than 14C.

14C went for $1.95M in 2005, so let's figure 12C might've gone for $2M in 2005. Whether 2005 pricing works now, I dunno.

In terms of moving 12C, its big point is the outward-facing L-shaped LR/DR, with four windowed walls.

Bad points are the kitchen and baths. New lighting and mirror in the master bath would go a long way. The kitchen's a straightforward layout, so new appliances, countertops, and decent under-cabinet lighting wouldn't cost that much. The owners might not get all the money back, but it'd be the kick in the butt the place needs to move.

"Dear Modern,
You are obviously a very unhappy, angry person, with nothing better to do with your Saturday Night than sit home and look at pictures of apartments you wish you could afford to buy. Way to go...bad mouth what you crave...that's the way to get even with the world."

Uhh, you posted this on Saturday night too, you know. If you had read any of my posts, you'd see I am looking for an apartment way above your price range, a mega-loft downtown, not your overpriced generic dated unit. What I "crave" is that lying brokers get indicted or lose their licenses for the frauds they commit every day in NYC.

Either you or your seller started this thread, and lied about your reasons for posting here. You are lying about the true interior square footage, and justifying it by saying it is ok to lie since the developer lied too. We are not buying that crap anymore on SE.

Feingirl: "No need to tell me about unscrupulous brokers...of course I know they exist."

Not only are you a leech on society, but you use all caps to get your point across.
Brilliant move...Have you not noticed how frustrated people are with brokers as of late? Do you think all of them are irrational people?
Or perhaps it's you brokers that are the problem?

You and Agent Rachel should have lunch and figure out new ways to rob people.
You are a leech on society...but probably not for long with the current economic downturn (or do you have a story worked out for unsuspecting buyers that when Spring hits the prices will go right back up!)
Ridiculous
Get a clue

Looks like Texas Courts are more advanced than NY:

http://www.realtor.org/RMODaily.nsf/pages/News2008112407?OpenDocument

Daily Real Estate News | November 24, 2008 |

Court Ruling: Square Footage Must Be Accurate

A Texas appeals court has upheld the principle that size matters in a case in which the square footage of a home sold in the central part of the state wasn’t what was advertised.

The buyers, who sued and won against the real estate professionals who handled the sale, told the court that they bought the property largely because they thought they were paying a lower rate per square foot than other sellers in the area were asking.

The house turned out to be 253 square feet smaller than the practitioner put on the information sheet and on the multiple listing service posting.

A jury awarded the purchasers damages and held the real estate professionals liable for misrepresentation and fraud. The court of appeals in Austin upheld the decision, even though the couple had moved into the home 30 days prior to settlement and the information came from tax records filed with the local municipality.

The appeals court said the real estate professionals had a duty to get the information right and the buyers shouldn’t have to pull out a tape measure.

NWT
I’ve been using 2005 pricing as guide to my offers. I’m finding fair value today is
about where things were then. You sound like me in your reasoning. I want a great
apartment at a fair trade price. I will sell my current apartment with the same understanding. When I price my apartment, I will price it as if it were 2005.

Modern:
I can tell by speech your aren't older than 30.
Hmm Modern, a thirty year old, home on a Saturday Night. Not exactly the same as a 55 year old, who is happy with her family. Anonymity is fabulous, isn't it. You can be anyone you want to be, in your head anyway.

falcogold1
You are right about your comp. But is is a COOP and it is as far East as one can go. If that exact apartment were in any condo along 3rd, even in today's market we would be looking at a price of over 3M. NOT a comp at all. But thanks for trying.
There is no exact calculation but Coops are generally priced 30-35% lower than their condo equals. (Therefore the 3M plus, approximately, that doesn't even take into consideration the difference in location).

Wishhouse
Look at that long, weird layout and the smaller rooms dimensions. There is no entry area.
Mainly, there is no outdoor space.
Even you use this as a comp, despite it's flaws you get to $2,0894,056 plus 99,710 (for the terrace) = 2,183, 766.
Thank you for the comp. It totally justifies my pricing. You pay a premium when buying in a new building. And the closing costs are higher. You pay the owner's transfer taxes and fees.

Kass242
Thank you for your comp. However the square footage is 1,386 interior. 346 smaller.
I have not seen this particular apartment but do know the building. First clue that there is something wrong is that there are not any photos from the terrace or of the apartment but for the kitchen and 1 bedroom.
The common charges and real estate taxes are $3600, $600 more. I would guess the views, except for the bedroom are bad. Sorry but this is not a good comp. but it is a good try.

The reason I know no good current comps exist, is because I have reviewed every single available or recently closed apartment, within a 10 block radius (as the appraisers do). However, the challenge is still on.

"Modern:
I can tell by speech your aren't older than 30. "

First, it is writing not speech. Second, tell that to my son in college. I can tell by your "speech" that you are a moron, and have been a leech on society, adding nothing but taking your fat commissions by lying to buyers and sellers. Guess what, the world doesn't need you and your lies anymore.

Your income will fall off a cliff this year, hope you have saved up and don't own too much real estate yourself (brokers were some of the biggest speculators in buying new pre-construction condos). Have a nice day.

Just from a sideline watcher... Feingirl is the reason I loathe brokers. She came on here and actually had the audacity to heckle other posters. What does it take to become a realtor? A degree from a match book? Just pathetic.

The snake oil comes at no extra charge

Beverly's been quite restrained, as it behooves her to be, in her responses to the broker-bashing. Scroll back up and re-read what 407PAS has to say. He's selling an apartment in this down market, knows it's difficult and frustrating, and isn't demonizing brokers as a group. I've always found brokers (when detached from a particular transaction, where they have to be discreet and responsible to their client) to be pretty up-front and interesting. Must be the exposure to way more human nature than I, for one, could deal with.

Aside from that, I just figured out how to use NYS RE Transfer Tax to figure out pre-2003 prices paid for condos, so I'm happy.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/201-east-80-street-new_york

The floor plans for all other listings in this building show square footage. This listing doe not. Maybe the floor plan for this apt never showed dimensions or a little bit o' white out was applied?

For me personally, size matters, but equally important is flow of space, layout, room size, exposures, view & location.

feingirl, I agree that your listing is a hard one to comp. It certainly has many nice features. But don't you think the fact that it has been on the market for more than two months and hasn't gone into contrac is glaring evidence that it is not priced for today's market? Perhaps you are using this thread as evidence to convince your delusional sellers that they need to lower their price. You can justify your list price any way you want, but we all know that you are wasting your time (or the seller is wasting your time) by keeping the listing at $2.295.

And by the way, there is no reasonably way to justify the fact that you don't have room dimensions on the floor plan. As a buyer, this only tells me that you are hiding a small footprint.

I retract my floor plan comment. Dimensions do not show up on the floor plan on Streeteasy, but they are available on the Halstead site.

This is the reason why I would rather deal directly with the seller and not through a so called "expert" broker. Brokers in the city are like used car salesmen.

But you do need to find a seller who'll deal directly with you. If I were selling, the 3-6% would be money well spent, if only to filter out crackpots, loonies, and the unqualified.

How exactly do brokers screen out unqualified people? They let anyone show up at open houses with no ID needed and let them wander around unescorted, and rarely even bother to show much interest in potentail buyers. I've never had one ask me for any evidence of anything before showing me an apartment. For much less $100,000 you can hire someone part-time to run credit checks etc on prospective buyers (do brokers even do that?).

I am very qualified and the broker on this thread has ruled me out as a 20 something nobody, shows you how poor they are at judging potential buyers.

Modern...again angry and again anonymous

Modern, of course they're not prequalifying you before showing you the apartment or letting you into the open house. That comes later, when you show signs of being a live one. (I'm talking mid-range here, not pricey apartments. You're going to be vetted before seeing Brooke Astor's old place.)

"But you do need to find a seller who'll deal directly with you. If I were selling, the 3-6% would be money well spent, if only to filter out crackpots, loonies, and the unqualified."

As an owner, I have had good experiences meeting the people who come to my open house. Just today I met an orchid judge who gave me some tips on how to take care of our two orchids. Thankfully, I have not been harassed by crackpots and loonies, although New York is full of them. I guess they don't waste their time at open houses.

You're right, most owners choose agents. A few of us go it alone. It's a free country, people should be able to sell their assets in any way they see fit.

Beverly has been honest and straightforward about the facts pertaining to her listing. I think some of the attacks on her are downright mean. There are people attached to the end of all these wires. We could be a little nicer to each other.

> Wishhouse
Look at that long, weird layout and the smaller rooms dimensions. There is no entry area.
Mainly, there is no outdoor space.
Even you use this as a comp, despite it's flaws you get to $2,0894,056 plus 99,710 (for the terrace) = 2,183, 766.

You're being dishonest. You've double-counted the terrace. Using the 305 E 85th comp at $1183 per square foot (2275/1923) gets you $1.870m using the inside square footage of 1750-169=1581. Add your $99k for the terrace is $1.970m. You apparently took the entire 1750 s.f. and tried to add the terrace a second time to get your $2183k.

305 East 85th is a block further east but its monthly charges are $800 lower. I wouldn't buy either of these that far north at near $2m. My guess it goes for 1.825m.

Crescent22

If you read the notes I entered above, you will see the interior sq ft is 1732. Exterior is 169.

1183 per sq ft x 1732 sq ft = $2,047,224
plus
169 terrace square feet X (591.50 or half the price of interior space) = $99 963

$2,147,187

jasmine=feingirl=idiots101

angry and not so anonymous

I doubt it. The box was measured by patient09 at 25x70 and I did it at 25x67.5 less the square in the top left = 1801. Take out the terrace at face value of 169 = 1632. OK, more than I thought before I did the calculation myself but the value using that methodology is $2.03m.

I don't agree with the 50% valuation on a terrace - I use 35% myself and these are ask prices, not realistic sale prices. I still say it goes for no more than $1.8m - 1050 per s.f. inside + 60k, and there are people here who don't think anything should be bought for over 1000 per s.f. now.

feingirl: how come you didn't do some analysis using the comp I gave you? If you can't, I don't really care, but maybe you could repay me for the gift certificate I owe AR from her bid top dollar or lose proposition Thursday past.

Patient09
I didn't see it earlier, excuse me.
The apartment is a very weird combination of 2 apartments. The layout makes no real sense.
There is a "home office" with no windows; a Master Bedroom that is bigger than the Living Room;
the terraces are not really deep enough to comfortably put a dining table for more than 2 people. Yes they face south, there is probably good light, being the 14th floor facing South. Corner of 1st and 84th, 2 blocks further East and a big negative for many people. The closet space is not nearly as good.
There seems to be walls in places that should be open. It would make a much better 2 bedroom than a 3.
I have real questions if this qualifies as a real comp.
I would not use it but it is a good try.
My listing has a terrific feeling of light and space. It is almost loft like, when you are standing in the entry foyer. You have a clear, open view East with tremendous light. The terrace is the size of a dining room and now accommodates a table for 6, sandwiched between the DR and LR it creates a wonderful sense of your own private space. The layout of my apartment makes sense.

If I boiled it down only to sq ft and outdoor space, yes it is a comp. But the subjective does play a part. I can honest say, 201 E 80 St is a much better apartment. Come and see it

thanks, but not my cup of tea. I still think it is horribly overpriced. Disclaimer, as I said before (I do like the building). With WEA trading south of $850-$950 per f2 for sixes and Park ave sixes being offered at $1,400 with no bid, I find it a stretch to price 2-3rd ave for $1,400 f2. Personal preference of course, but living in the 80's between 2nd and lex reminds me of everything thats wrong with the UES.

To each his own. I live on the West Side myself.
I don't want to argue with you. It will trade where the market says it will trade.
As I have always said, no matter what the market, it is the buyers who make the market.
Owners and brokers can price as they see fit. If it sells, it sells, if it rents, it rents.
Which brings me to the benefit of a condo. It can always be rented. When you talk about Park and WEA, you are talking about coops. There really is a difference. You will see coop prices fall faster than condos. Just to clarify a small point, I am not priced at $1400 per square foot, asking, I am at $1333, asking.

I will sign off now for quite a while. Thank you all for an entertaining 24 hours.

I've been reading this with some interest. A few comments for those interested.

- I agree with feingirl and many others that this is a beautiful apartment, unique, etc.

- The square footage, however, is a joke. I know this type of apartment/layout very well, since I live in a pretty similar apartment, and saw 20+ apartments of similar size/layout when looking for this one (rental) in December. I would estimate 1400SF, 1500 at the absolute most. Any "official" measurements or other technicalities are completely irrelevant. I live inside the interior square footage, and that is what matters to me. I don't live on the developer's floorplan, in allocation of common space, etc.

- I enjoyed the comps discussion. Predicably, feingirl knocked each of them as "not a real comp". Obviously every apartment is different, so what? Most of the apartments shown were either generally comparable (give or take) and much cheaper, or clearly better and still cheaper. Hmm...

- I'll try with another comp that I've seen in person (and that I'm sure feingirl will find lots wrong with):
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358615-condo-150-east-85th-street-upper-east-side-new-york
It's a condo, similar size (listed as smaller, only because they are more honest), somewhat worse layout, but much, much bigger terrace. The location is at least as good, and I would argue it's better. Here's the best part: It's been on the market for a year, gone through several price cuts, is currently listed over 20% below Feingirl's listing, and, um, is still not selling. I wonder why...

- Here's a "comp" thought process from another angle. My current apartment is a bit smaller than feingirl's listing, and not quite as nice, but my terrace is much, much bigger (around the same size as the 150 east 85th listing). My area is probably equivalent, all things considered, although I prefer it more. Would I swap my apartment for feingirl's listing if money was a non-factor? Probably, but it would be close. But here's the kicker: I pay just under $5000 in rent. That makes my "decision" a 38x rent-to-buy, plus over $2psf in common charges to boot. Let's just say I am not raring to bid on feingirl's listing.

- In conclusion, I agree with those that say the price is absolutely absurd. Well over $1500 per "real" square foot. The only possible reasoning I can think of is "anchoring" - i.e. feingirl is hoping beyond hope to find someone that bids $1.7MM thinking they got a great deal because of the huge "discount".

- Feingirl is right - it will trade where the market says it will trade. My prediction is either a sale somewhere around $1.3-$1.4MM, or, much likelier, pulling the listing off the market with no sale.

- I agree with some that feingirl has been professional, knowledgeable and logical in her arguments. Nonetheless, I think the anger directed at her (and at many brokers) stems from (a) her insistence on flat-out lying about square footage and (b) listing and defending an offensive price with a straight face. I imagine if my mom listed her 2006 Camry as a Lexus and asked $75K for it, people might get upset too.

Here's a few more comps, without comments - I'll let people decide for themselves whether good comps or not.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/390259-condo-455-east-86th-street-yorkville-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/391169-condo-400-east-70th-street-lenox-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377112-condo-401-east-84th-street-yorkville-new-york

feingirl, just one more comment. I like how you defended yourself. You should not have needed to. I do believe that the apt is about 1750 feet if you take the outside dimensions(which is the accurate way.) The people who take the dimensions of the rooms and add them up are morons. Why they don't count hallways and closets is beyond my understanding when you really need them as part of a living experience. Some of you may remember me as the one who started the post on the Majestic apt that was listed by the dolt as 2200 feet when that was an out and out lie. But here the broker is being truthful. Let's give credit where it is due. And I think that the apt is beautiful. Maybe a bit high for the market, but at least we can compare apples to apples when we have a listing broker who is being honest with the print copy. Oh, btw, loved the breakfast nook photo!

Some more:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/390265-coop-1199-park-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346099-condo-301-east-79th-street-yorkville-new-york (still cheaper after you do the work to combine, and probably twice the size of feingirl's listing)
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/315395-condo-205-east-76th-street-upper-east-side-new-york

Some more:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377097-condo-1438-third-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372142-coop-401-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york (yes, a bit smaller and a coop, but, um, less than half the price)
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358988-coop-401-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york (same as above - hell you could buy both!)

And more:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/366311-condo-350-east-82nd-street-yorkville-new-york (4 bedroom condo with massive terrace, and still cheaper!)
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365401-coop-360-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364623-coop-420-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/167642-condo-301-east-79th-street-yorkville-new-york (half of the combination listed above, probably a better comp by itself)

Ugh, I've wasted way too much time doing this. Just makes me that much angrier at feingirl (kidding).

I sit reading this on a tiny stool next to my radiator eating a banana. I just can't understand what the hub-bub is all about. Why just today my migit wife told me that our son was concieved in a clown car. It's a lovely view from my breakfast nook, just a little hot...makes the bananas too soft. Anyone looking for a one ball juggler? (another circus acciddent)

I actually disagree with the idea that Beverly has been either professional or knowledgeable. There's brokers who post on this board whose opinions I respect tremendously even when I disagree with them. They take some heat for being brokers but they acknowledge the reasons that people act hostile toward them, and they get and deserve a lot of respect for it. I'm glad they are here because they balance out the commentors who are so hostile toward brokers.

Contrast that approach with these comments:
"I have been a broker for nearly 20 years.
How old are you??? Have you been around that long?"
Personal attacks? I'd NEVER sign my name to that.
"TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE MADE COMMENTS ON THIS SITE....HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY BEEN INSIDE THE APARTMENT? It is so obvious that none of you have really seen it."
Your job is to make me want to see it, and once I see it, to buy it. Hostility makes me want to run away.
"You are obviously a very unhappy, angry person, with nothing better to do with your Saturday Night than sit home and look at pictures of apartments you wish you could afford to buy. Way to go...bad mouth what you crave...that's the way to get even with the world."
Again. I would never, ever sign my name to this.
"No need to tell me about unscrupulous brokers...of course I know they exist."
Yet she exaggerates the square footage and apparently has problems with mathematics.
"I can tell by speech your aren't older than 30.
Hmm Modern, a thirty year old, home on a Saturday Night. Not exactly the same as a 55 year old, who is happy with her family. Anonymity is fabulous, isn't it. You can be anyone you want to be, in your head anyway."
There's value in anonymity. I'm young, not yet wealthy enough to afford the apartment she's shilling for, but hoping to be one day. Let's say that I am in ten years: I'll still know her as the broker who can't do math and resorts to shrill personal attacks and signs her name to it. Not savvy, either on the internet or in customer service, and I'd never want to work with her on a sale.

skippy: close, but not accurate, it is under then 1750, then subtract, not add the 13 x 13 outdoor space. The entire space, walls, dead space etc ..etc. is 25 x 70 max, another said 25 x 67.5, this already includes the terrace.

"I AM THE BROKER FOR THIS LISTING. BEVERLY H. FEINGOLD, V.P. Halstead 212-381-2338
The precise square footage of this property is 1732 square feet, interior space, PLUS 169 square feet (13 X 13) exterior. This is as per the original Offering Plan, published by the builder, 11 years ago when the current owners purchased the apartment."

This statement is simply wrong, don't agree with her on this.

The offering plan (per Beverly; I haven't seen it) says 1732 for the apt and 169 for the terrace.

The condo declaration (on ACRIS) says 1722 for the apt and 146 for the terrace.

No big deal here.

I'm confused. Aren't comps in that specific building substantially lower? Apt 11D, which I saw and which is a nice 2b/2b that is 1498 sf sold for $1.4M, which is less that 1,000 per sf. Apt 6B, which is a tad smaller at 1350 sf, has been sitting on the market for 4 months asking $1.4M with no one biting.

So you're asking $300 more per sf than recent comps, excluding the terrace. I don't know how to value that, but is it worth more than $500k (1,750 sq x $1,000 = $1,750,000)???

And, of course, we are in a declining market, which I guess you don't account for.

Listen, good luck with this. I moved from a sideliner looking for precisely that kind of apartment (although I never put balcony high on my list) to no longer really looking, so I've got no stake in this other than pure curiousity.

12C is unique in the building. There are no comps. 14C is same footprint, but no terrace, so close. Somewhere up above I blathered about 14C's sale in 2005.

I'm talking about ppsf. I know its a unique apartment for the building. But in terms of ppsf, which is something I take pretty seriously, it is well above comps of 2b/2b in its own building. If I had to guess, and having studied the UES market for a while, this will move at around $1.8. I mean, its still only a 2 bedroom. I don't think there is any way to justify it above 2005 pricing. Beverly and the owners are the only ones who know where the offers are coming in, so they will have to decide how badly they want to move the apartment (if at all).

its just real estate...everyone needs to relax a bit...
feingirl....You are wasting your time...this site is relentless....good luck in all your real estate endeavors...fyi... the more you talk about how long the buyers have owned...the lower the offer wil come in.... good luck....

I don't want to argue with you guys any longer about square footage or price or anything having to do with this apartment. It does not serve the purposes of my customers, the owners.

I would not use any of the comps you sent as direct comps, so the challenge is over. I really was hoping you'd find me something I hadn't already seen.

This is a lovely apartment that will trade where the market says it will trade.
As I have always said, "no matter what the market, it is the buyers who make the market."
Owners and brokers can price as they see fit. If it sells, it sells, if it rents, it rents.
If not adjustments will to be made.

To everyone who posted constructive criticism, I want to thank you. I have already made the changes we discussed.

To all of the people here who are interested in learning about New York City Real Estate, especially coming from out of the country or out of town. Take what you read here with a grain of salt. There are one or two people, who know what they are talking about and are interested in this never ending learning process. The others, well you can read what I think of them above.

I will sign off now from this posting.

Thank you all for an entertaining 24 hours.

There're square feet and square feet, but that's been gone over enough.

The current owners will do fine however it goes, not that that should matter.

It's as if 12C is our pet apartment. We can all chip in on a gift for the new owners when they turn up.

For our purposes, I think 150 E 85th 12B is an excellent comp. feingirl decided not to address that. 15% less indoor space (1400 v 1632) but 314% more outdoor space - they work out to similar once you use subjective discounting of terrace space.

150 East 85th is $500,000 less and a better location than 80th and 3rd with a 3rd bedroom. No doubt feingirl will point out differences like $400 maintenance and the direction the apartments face, but these do not offset the first two problems.

If feingirl is selling 201 E 80th on its uniqueness, that's fine, but it would then be dishonest to play this game of finding a comp when the goal is to sell it as uncomparable to anything else. The problem is in a market like this, comps start to matter more and uniqueness less- there are still those who will buy on love-at-first-sight, it's just that the population set is much smaller than before and the clients take the risk of reacting late to market chops.

hey --- bottom line on this place all hinges on the terrace. no terrace, two bed, two bath east of third $1.2 maybe? so the terrace is worth $1 million? hey, you never know. as i have said about other terraces, i would find the same place absent the terrace, buy a great country place and pocket at least $300 K in change. but that's me.

"I don't want to argue with you guys any longer about square footage or price or anything having to do with this apartment. It does not serve the purposes of my customers, the owners.

I would not use any of the comps you sent as direct comps, so the challenge is over. I really was hoping you'd find me something I hadn't already seen."

Step 1: I have my flunky post the listing to shill for me.

Step 2: When I realize that my listing is being discredited with good reason and my sellers are pissed I will log-on to SE and make straw-man arguments to distract attention from my bad decision to shill on SE.

Step 3: I will attack anyone who disagrees with me to further change the subject.

Step 4: I will pivot and try to make it seem like I am a good moral person (hahaha!) by telling those darn SE posters that they could be hurting my poor sellers with their pesky facts about my overprices and size-inflated listing (mental note to self - when market improves, begin marketing all airspace outside of apartment to increase the listing size of apartments).

Step 5: Tell SE that I won't answer any more questions about this apartment's size or price.

Step 6: Tell SE posters that I won't use any of their comps (since their comps prove I am a knucklehead).

Step 7: Proceed to lose listing to rival agency who cuts the price by 35% and sells the apartment.

Step 8: Drink bourbon with breakfast while continuing to blame everything that doesn't go my way on other people. I am a broker, for god's sake. I am always right. How dare anyone, especially SE posters, question anything I say.

Step 9: Consider developing pill addiction to deal with crappy market.

Step 10: Finally realize that things will only get better when I stop acting like a giant d-bag and start behaving like an honest professional who cares about doing things the right way.

feingirl is another example of a broker hanging on for dear life to the old ways
Keep hangin on honey...hope you have enough to retire, cause you won't be around for too much longer.

feingirl: I am a new buyer and find you to be insulting and unprofessional. You are in sales and you're personally attacking people's age, financial status, and (seriously?!) what they're doing on a Saturday night. I would never work with you. I understand it's tough for brokers on these forums, but (for your own sake) keep it together and keep it professional.

Crescent, I find your reasoning great with two exceptions. 1) I think 150 East 85th has just as much usable space as feingirl's listing. 2) After all the price cuts and a year on the market, 150 east 85th is still languishing. Thus my prediction of $1.3-1.4MM, or no sale at all.

If this thing didn't have a terrace, I'd predict $1.1-$1.2MM for it. You can get an apartment that functions just as well as this one for well under $1MM, with lower cc's. This one is a bit bigger than most with that layout, and certainly nicer, which probably commands a $300K premium or so. Plus the $200K premium for the terrace (maybe), brings you back to $1.3-$1.4MM

Incidentally, I find it funny that feingirl has now signed off twice. Let's see if she comes back again.

Crescent, you might find this thread interesting reguarding 150 East 80th #12B

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8314-how-serious-is-this-seller

Illustrates the comic nature of this thread

"AGAIN, I CHALLENGE ANY OF YOU TO FIND ME A SINGLE REAL COMPARABLE THAT HAS SOLD FOR LESS IN THE PAST 6 MONTHS OR THAT IS ON THE MARKET FOR LESS.
IF YOU CAN I WILL ASK THE OWNERS TO LOWER THE PRICE."

Remember this place with the broker who thought people ate breakfast on HVAC units? $300k price chop, still inflated in both square footage and price.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373272-condo-201-east-80th-street-yorkville-new-york

Looks like Bev is switching from the cool-aid to smelling the coffee, good for her. Few more of these and everyone gets paid.

modern,
Funny you should post this. I checked out this listing a few days ago & noticed that it hadn't sold. The broker doth protested too much. It was a lesson in what not to do.

But, modern, you're overlooking something: if you dine on the hvac unit (me thinks it looked more like a radiator cover; that pic's been removed from the listing), ya don't need a table, which in turn, creates more SF.

This place wont get ANY traction at all until its down in the $1.1 to $1.2 range. It will then likely sell around $950 to $1m. Sure its nice, but there are many other apartments that are cheaper and more desirable. The bottom line is that if Feingirl sold it to these people 11 years ago, they are still going to make a nice profit selling it at around $1m.

Yes, I am saying this apartment needs ANOTHER 50% drop to sell. If the owners dont realize that they will be holding on to it for many years to come......

bandit: go back 8 weeks ago in this thread...a few predictions on final sales price similar to yours.

Here is what doesnt make sense to me. Feingirl (and her ilk) need to earn a living, just like everyone else. Why then doesnt she smack this delusional owner over the head and tell it like it is?? As it stands today she wont make a dime, as this place wont sell. The problem is that both the seller and the broker are stuck in the bubble mentality of "this price is appropiate because the apartment is unique". That mentality is utter nonsense, especially these days. There will NOT be a bidding war for this apartment at $2m (current price). There wont even be any people coming to see it at the current price (unless they have just been released from a mental hospital). Feingirl, here is my suggestion AND a quick way for you to make some $ by selling the place.

1) Convince the owner to set the price of this apartment a little below current market value, lets say $1m even.

2) That will actually get people to care about the listing, and will (shockingly!) BRING people to your open house!

3) Assuming you do a good job promoting the listing, you could actually get the mythical bidding war going on.

4) You will then be able to close this sale in the low $1m range, get your cut, and move on to the next one.

5) WORST CASE SCENARIO: You price it a $1m and you STILL only get a few responses, what then? The answer is simple; the owner can opt NOT to accept the offer and you are in no worse of a position than you are in now.

Lets get to the meat of the issue here, shall we? YOU (Feingirl) are in sales, as am I. You dont represent the seller at the end of the day, you represent YOURSELF and YOUR best interests. YOU want/need to make a living to support your family, so you have two choices (as does EVERYONE in sales when faced with a situation like this).

1) You can fight the situation, and hope/pray that you will sell at a wildly inflated price
2) You can accept where the price needs to be, SET IT AS SUCH, make your money and move on.

Its a tough call, and its something you need to think long and hard about. Do you care more about actually closing this sale or trying to represent yourself as the broker who asks WAY more than the apartment is worth? The seller certainly wants the broker who can get $2m, but that isnt happening. I suggest you look out for yourself here, and have a VERY serious 'sit down' with these people.

Your analysis makes sense but assumes the broker is smart. Based on her posts here, nothing could be further from the truth.

Remember, in order to get the listing in the first place, the broker needs to misrepresent the market to the buyer and tell them they will get $2 million for their apartment. Adjustment to reality can be a tough conversation to have with your client, although I would imagine pointing them to this thread would help considerably

Lets take this a step further, since we are already analyzing it. Yes, the broker initially told them she could get $2m (plus) for the apartment. Clearly that isnt happening, so in my opinion she needs to do one of two things. First, she needs to find out how serious the seller is about ACTUALLY selling. For all we know they have a financial reason that they need to offload the aparmtment. If so, she needs to (very clearly) explain to them that they need to drop the price 50% in order to have any hope of selling it. Secondly, she needs to take a moment and think about HERSELF here. If these people either dont need to sell (no impending event is pushing it), or they are unwilling to drop the price, she shouldnt spend any more of her money, time, or resources dealing with them. I can assure you that she is having a VERY bad year (from a sales perspective), so she should focus ALL her attention on sellers who are actually serious about closing.

This is just my advice of course, but its based on MANY years of sales success. The hardest thing in sales is to know when to WALK AWAY, and when to keep fighting. Feingirl needs to have a 'heart to heart' with herself here, and QUICK..........