Suing developers to fix noisy floors and ceilings?

sammy1010: about 3 months ago

Easy problem to fix. Install speakers underneath their kids bedroom and play it loud when they decide to run laps or when the old, wrinkled, fat mom starts stomping around in her mumu! If it worked for me, then it can work for you! Good luck!

EastRiver: about 4 months ago

will,
I can't answer that question. I don't have any experience with this and neither do most, if not all the general contractors in the city. They will gladly give you a recommendation and take your money to do the job but they will not guarentee it or stand by their work. But, in my personal opinion, I don't think the foam would do much. The better bet would seem to use the soundeater that TripleR stated and the rubber mats used together.

TripleR: about 4 months ago

Some of the other posters have suggested 1/2" to 3/4" of rubber mats. The link I provided earlier is considered to be very effective.
http://www.soundseal.com/impacta/soundeater.shtml

The foam underlayment is not going to be enough to stop and lessen the sound from the hard wood floors. Foam underlayment is fine for carpeting but not for hardwood floors I was told.

will: about 4 months ago

EastRiver -- what about a foam underlayment? Would that be better?

EastRiver: about 4 months ago

ProperSerice, I looked at Belltel lofts and after talking with some people, the concrete thickness is not over 12 inches but in fact 10 inches. Two inches don't seem that big a deal but why would they lie about it? Your bamboo floors are glued to a thin cork underlayment (1/8") which in turn is glued to the concrete floor. Talk about a recipe for disaster! Clipper Equity is the developer and they are the same guys trying to buy Starrett City housing projects in Brooklyn for billions of dollars. For the money it will take to fix this horrible design and construction, like you said, it will be just easier and less expensive to start over in another building. Your concerns about the impact noise is pretty common in new construction. I don't know what type of unit you have but if you want to unload it, you might have to take a hit on the price. Not a pleasant thought since you just bought this place. Right now I live in a very nice rental building and it is quiet. It's expensive and for the cost of my rent I could buy a condo of the same size but I know the bones of the building and apartment won't compare to what I'm living in right.

ProperSerice: about 4 months ago

TripleR - Nice link. Better construction materials I think would definitily cut down on the "quality of life" issues for all NYers. Though I wonder what the cut off in dollar amount is actually considered "luxury" in NYC. I paid over a million but this being NYC, it's more average to upper average. I NEVER thought of it as luxury.

aemmert - Word of advice, get out of contract. It's not worth the stress you're going to get, relationship problems with your "whoever" and a big sense of buyers remorse. There are so much better and more choices right now. But, regardless good luck and hope you don't have any problems.

aemmert: about 4 months ago

ProperSerice, I am in contract at BelTell. Please email me at aemmert2002@msn.com so we can talk further. Since I have not yet closed, I may get a little more of their "ear" on this.

....as far as the attack on the "stroller mom's": I'm not a fan of inconsiderate parents who run you over in the street with the SUV-like, giant strollers, but I will say noone looks out for property values more than families. So the fact that this is a family-building, I'll take as a positive.

TripleR: about 4 months ago

Check this link out. Click on the "March 1, 2008" link (it's a pdf). Looks like perhaps the industry is shifting away from fancy appliances and going towards solid construction and soundproofing in the NYC luxury market! Let's hope this is true!!!!

http://luxuryloft.com/luxuryletter.php

Direct link:
http://luxuryloft.com/files/luxuryletters/LUXURYLETTER_MARCH_2008.pdf

lisa_asil: about 4 months ago

Do what the curbers did from this thread and BTW, at the bottom your building is also mentioned! I don't know if I should say congratulations or condolances! Either way, it's not good.
http://curbed.com/archives/2008/05/07/ask_curbed_the_little_ones_upstairs_are_making_me_insane.php#reader_comments

My personal favorite is calling them at all hours of the night and knocking or ringing their door bell at all hours!

TripleR: about 4 months ago

I just read the entire thread & it's a very sad turn of events. I'm so glad I didn't buy within the last two years even though I REALLY, REALLY wanted to but with all these negative posts regarding new construction and new conversions, it just seems the best bet is to buy at an established building (perhaps pre-war) with an established track record and postive reviews.

Thanks for the eye opener!

ps. Do you guys think with this building being in Brooklyn has any bearing on the quality being even less than it should be if this building was in Manhattan?

1OneWon: about 4 months ago

I've been wanting to check out the units in this building for a long time but now I'm not so sure I should even consider it. I'm grateful for such truthful and insider information regarding everything from building materials and workmanship to building politics but it I'm still curious and want to look at the units. Is it really that noisy in there or is it pretty much on par for similar buildings?

mogul: about 4 months ago

ProperSerice - I feel for you. In fact I know exactly what you mean. I too had to move out from a new conversion building because I couldnt take the bad construction and noisey neighbors.

My neighbor(s) was in and out of their apartment when most people should be sleeping. They would let their door slam shut like it was nothing. We complained but to no avail.

So in the end we moved out. Granted it was the cheap a$$ developer's fault for using the cheapest construction materials but our neighbors did not help.

We moved out and I'm so much happier!

stakan: about 4 months ago

Beware of these "child-friendly" buildings. People with children somehow feel entitled and self indulgent and don't give a shit. They expect the world to bend over for them, for some reason. My building VOTED DOWN any prospective playrooms, stroller storages and such. What's more, they move in with one child and then pop out more, bringing the quality of life in the building down (overpopulation!)

ProperSerice: about 4 months ago

1OneWon - The bids for soundproofing my ceilings was more than I can afford right now since most of my reserves have been used for the down payment, closing, furniture and etc.. I will have to wait about a year before starting the project. Even then, there is no guarantee it will do any good. I think it's just best to start over in a new, I mean a different building.

Belltel is an excellent building, it's just too bad the fat, old, unemployed-petty-moms never leave their apartments and stomp around above you as if they're on a marching band all day and night. And, of course their bratty little kids throwing things on the floor and running hard 24/7!

This purchase is the worst decision of my entire life. The mean spirited moms are single handlily destroying the livability in this building. The buildings blog is not engaged anymore since all the stroller moms have hi-jacked it and will not "allow" any opposing views. They even made a requirement to post your real names and your unit # on all posts!! It's just crazy!

1OneWon: about 4 months ago

Did you do any soundproofing for either your floors or ceiling? BTW, thanks for letting us know the name of the building.

ProperSerice: about 4 months ago

..."protect".

ProperSerice: about 4 months ago

I've had it to my eyeballs with this place. I'm cutting my loses and looking at other places to live. Hopefully, within the next year I can move out.

FYI, the building I was trying to propect is none other than BELLTEL LOFTS! Keep away! The hard walking on heels by the stroller moms and nannies is just too much. Who the hell wants to live in a home they paid over a million dollars and have to wear ear plugs at night because babies are screaming their heads off and thier b*tchy parents are stomping hard on their heels above you 24/7?

BELLTEL blows!

drdrd: about 6 months ago

I'm thinking that you should invite all of your neighbors who currently DO NOT have anyone living above them to your place for a little 'show & tell' - be sure to have someone upstairs stomping about so that they will then know what's in store & then EVERYONE will be on the same page.

ProperSerice: about 6 months ago

I'm still shopping around for the proper course of action to take. Getting bids from different people on doing tests to measure the Sound Transmission Class (STC) and Impact Isolation Class (IIC) in my unit. I feel like I have to do these tests in order to establish a paper trail and record what I live with. The tests are expensive. I got a quote from acoustilog.com for around $1,400 for a standard test and printed report and around $2,300 for the complete test including the IIC - impact noise test. The whole thing only takes a couple of hours. I'm trying to get other bids.

tenemental, the quote you pasted is exactly how I feel! At least I'm not alone and after talking with a bunch of acoustical contractors and acoustical consultants, the noise compliant is very, very common among new condo and co-op owners. It is the #1 complaint and is very common and NYC did revise its IIC code as of June 2007. I'm unsure of how it is implemented right now. If developers started their projects before this date are they grandfathered to the old standard or all projects supposed to meet these new guidelines? I'm also shopping for a real estate attorney to deal with this. No, I'm not using the real estate lawyer I hired for the closing, he was from Brooklyn Heights totally useless. I'll post what I find out.

I have quite by accident become a novice acoustical expert. Green glue and regular drywall is better than or equal to quietrock and is less $$$.

kylewest: about 6 months ago

This thread is a strong cautionary tale about new construction risks. I suspect the quality of most new construction in the past few years will come back to haunt owners in the next decade(s).

tenemental: about 6 months ago

ProperSerice, I don't know the first thing on this topic, but read this Curbed post and wondered if the IIC code might do you some good.

"A couple years ago the city updated it's noise code for new construction and especially the impact noise portion to higher standards, the IIC code. Condo owners in NYC will bitch about the improper grout being done in the bathroom shower (takes about $25 to fix) but not bitch "to the developer" about improper construction materials. They complain after the fact, to 311 and the cops about neighbor noise and then the condo board requirement for rugs covering the hardwood floors. The developers by LAW have to address and fix these shoddy, loud sound leaks."

superquant: about 6 months ago

http://quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html

Ten: about 6 months ago

QuietRock is way too expensive. For the same cost you lay the thin concrete cinder blocks and cover with 2 layers of regular drywall... (I think, I didn't take into consideration the cost of labor).

will: about 6 months ago

Do you have any additional information, link re quietrock?

superquant: about 6 months ago

It seems like the easiest option for party walls is to retrofit additional soundproofing after the fact. Products like quietrock can be overlayed on existing drywall and are rated at STC 60+. However STC tests do not cover below 125Hz which is where the bass and loudness of home theater and rock music etc are most prevalent .. any comments from city dwelling sound mavens out there?

will: about 6 months ago

One thought would be to put a "soundproofing contigency" into a bid for a unit. Never done here in NYC as far as I know but in some other cities I've seen places where you can buy a "soundproofing package."

The downside is that it might be difficult to get a meeting of the minds on what kind of soundproofing, and in some cases you'll lose floor space and ceiling height, unless they take down the walls, etc. Could be you can work something out where work has not been completed.

The other issue is that while soundproofing may help, there is no guarantee that you won't hear anything.

Ten: about 6 months ago

I feel your pain. I'm looking for the same things as you. I'm shopping around for a condo right now and soundproofing is the most important item I'm looking at while deciding which building to buy into. The building must have the basic solid construction:

1. Thick solid concrete floors and ceilings. (Newer concrete floorings in some buildings are hollow)
2. High finished ceilings over 10'. Must have electrical and light fixtures. (You'd be amazed at the number of new "lofts" that go bare ceilings in order to achieve a higher ceiling height)
3. Units wall made with masonary as the structural wall.

So far, not many in my price range comes close, but I have been able to get the developers to go lower in price to make up for the fact that I have to completely redo the condo after I buy it.

will: about 6 months ago

I think that there's little sensitivity to this in NYC. That's why companies like City Soundproofing are so successful!

duecescracked: about 6 months ago

A related question pertains to the soundproofing capability of the party walls in an apartment. How does one go about evaluating the quality of the sound insulation, especially in a new development in order to make sure that no shortcuts were taken? I understand that the NYC DOB code requires an STC rating of 51 for the party walls, but this is the bare minimum.

I would want to be able to play movies or music loud and not have the neighbors going crazy over it (and vice versa). Is this even realistic in a NYC apartment?

ProperSerice: about 6 months ago

I can't hear any noise from my downstairs neighbor but they can hear my footsteps so I am going to redo the floors. Nothing like having your co-workers and boss over for dinner and telling them to take their shoes and high heels off because it makes too much noise for my downstairs neighbor. This will also fix any FUTURE idea by the eventual condo board to require laying 70% rugs because now my fellow neighbors will also complain about the loud impact noise from the wood floors.

I'll have to do something about the ceiling as well. If I can't get them to do the same thing to their floors as I am doing to mine, then I guess I will do some type of soundproofing or adding additional materials on my ceiling. It's not going to be as effective as treating the wood floor but I don't want to do anything that will cause me to lose too much ceiling height. Luckily, my ceiling height is over 11'.

kylewest: about 6 months ago

I don't understand: noise comes UP through your floors from the apt below? If so, I guess re-doing your own floors would help, although it sounds expensive to rip up your flooring, lay the new soundproof layer and then re-lay new flooring since I assume you would destroy the old floor when ripping it up. If the noise comes from above, which is what I imagine is where most of it is from, are you going to redo your upstairs neighbor's floors?

Do you have to move out temporarily to redo the floors? Doesn't all the furniture and baseboard moulding have to be removed first? More expense. Then replacing baseboards and probably repainting since no way are wall getting through this unscathed. It sounds just awful. And resolving it without a contribution from the contractor/sponsor/agents, etc? Sounds like litigation, too. You tell a very informative cautionary tale. Thank you for pointing out something to really look for when purchasing.

ProperSerice: about 6 months ago

I didn't buy on spec. My unit was finished as well as all the units on my floor and units below and some above me when I went to contract and bought. And, I did check the soundproofing features in all the buildings that I looked and the building I bought into had the "best" in comparison to other comparables.

You know, I'm not a cheap guy and I'm not a noisy neighbor but I do want my "home" to feel like a home and not a cheap rental I've been living in for years to save up on $$$. If worse comes to worse, I'll just pay for the redo of the wood floors and lay a proper material underneath and chalk it up to home improvement renovations. I have to run attitional electrical wires anyway. It feels like I bought a fixer-upper instead of a luxury new conversion condo. At least it's tax deductible now.

mattthecat: about 6 months ago

Its your own fault. You thought it was a brilliant idea to buy a property on spec instead of buying a property that you could go and see and investigate in advance. This was probably one of your biggest investments, by far, and yet you had the mindset that you would put your money in without any true knowledge of the outcome.

ProperSerice: about 6 months ago

There would not be a requirement by the condo association if the developers treated the hardwood floors properly in the first. This is exactly the reason why I'm interested in fixing the impact noise so that I don't have to take my shoes off and neither do my guests. Ditto for everybody else in my building.

The concrete floors are 12" thick and solid. It's an old pre-war building but gutted out and hence, no sound protection.

moreilly: about 6 months ago

Many condo associations will have restrictions on how much hardwood you can have, either by requiring area rugs or not allowing hardwood in the bedrooms (if the units are stacked). If someone is walking on a hardwood floor with hard shoes, you WILL hear it, no matter how well it's soundproofed. I, for one, take off my shoes when I'm at home, and insist on it with all my visitors. It's much more civilized and comfortable.

flea: about 6 months ago

mmm33,

Not necessarily:

Engineered Wood may be: Floated, Nailed, or Glued

Solid Wood may be: Nailed, or Glued (Pending subfloor, and hydrostatic pressure)

Gluing and floating are best forms of installation, regardless of material. Mechanical fastening, RE: Nails, creates excess noise - think squeaky floors!

flea: about 6 months ago

ProperService - Try me at itsflea22 "at" hotmail.com

If the materials are floated, there is almost certainly some sort of underlayment.

Floating floors are easy to repair, but mostly glued together which ensures that removing/replacing isn't so easy. Likely the cost to retrofit, if simply a matter of remove/reinstall would run the builder (Whom is usually the source of issues, not the developer) in the $5/SF range. This may seem economical on a small scale, but figure 200 Units * 800 SF = $800K!

Try to find out from your representative:

1) Exact wood installed, including it's specifications, and if it's T & G or Click

2) Underlayment - Specs' again

3) Slabs can be extremely thick, but this means nothing - one has to take into account the structure of the concrete, at 12" it is almost certainly hollow.

mmm33: about 6 months ago

Engineered Wood floors are glued, hardwood floors are nailed-this is what I was led to believe. Looks like engineered wood is in fashion these days

Tony: about 6 months ago

Interesting, at my place they told me that there was some kind of foam under the hardwood floors... do they tend to ever nail these down? I know at one point people were complaining about the boards coming up.

ProperSerice: about 6 months ago

mmm333, We are doing that as well but the impact noise is not on it right now. And, since most of the people living in the building don't have neighbors yet, they are not pushing it and the developers really don't want to address this and would rather it be an owners issue. I don't think they want to rip up the wood floors and lay rubber mats, or mass-loaded vinyl, or gypecrete, or whatever and put the wood floors back on. The wood floors are "floating" and are not nailed to the below concrete, so, it is easily removable. Second, around and under all the doors are enough space (approx. 1/2" to 3/4") to allow the raising of the floor from additional materials underneath. The large gaps under the doors which were faults at first could make it easier and less expensive to add some type of protective sound barrier.

flea, are you an acoustical engineer or work for one? I would like to contact you but what is the best way to do so?