DUMBO worse off than other areas of Brooklyn?

wisco: about 8 months ago

i'm over 40 and bought in williamsburg a couple of years ago. most of the owners in my condo are 30+ minimum and there's tons of families. i like it here. i think the majority of the williamsburg bashers aren't residents. one thing that williamsburg will always have is easy proximity to all of manhattan. it's better than any other brooklyn neighborhood. of course, the above posts about so many people coming to williamsburg to go for music, food, bars, shops, galleries and even hair salons (even foreigners know about the salons, see any city search listing for proof of this) is correct. i love personally being able to go out to great places in my immediate area. obviously, as a married person with a kid, I'm so not a hipster, so clearly we are out here. the families are growing like crazy. in the last month alone, a charter school and a montessori school have opened - it's a changing area.

re dumbo - i didn't buy there because of the two bridges and the BQE which make the hood unbearably loud. also, i wouldn't want to live so close that crazy huge project. some of the buildings are nice though.

mutombonyc: about 8 months ago

Is Gleason's Gym still open?

currenttime: about 8 months ago

When I think DUMBO, I think the trains and multiple lanes of traffic zooming overhead so loud that you have to shout for the person next to you to hear what you are saying. As NYT would have it, Dumbo is so August.

gleeclub: about 8 months ago

Still pretty high prices at places like 70 Washington and 100 Jay.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"New York Times demographic shift shift by neighborhood... well posted on this board about 2 weeks ago. You don't think WB has a considerably different economic makeup than 10-20 years ago?"

Link please? Did a search - nothing came up. On the latter point, of course there's a different economic makeup, but I think you're still assuming that somehow the locals did not benefit from this in any way.

"BTW, I'm surprised you are surprised.... didn't the article on asians/indians in Brooklyn/LIC fairly well cover this?"

What's the point here? Wasn't that article about the Toren?

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> Where are the stats? Link? I'm not sure those data are out there.

New York Times demographic shift shift by neighborhood... well posted on this board about 2 weeks ago. You don't think WB has a considerably different economic makeup than 10-20 years ago?

> I'll have to take you at your word on this, but it's not what I've seen.
> Which developers do you know?

Can't out myself... but lets just say real estate is the family business.

BTW, I'm surprised you are surprised.... didn't the article on asians/indians in Brooklyn/LIC fairly well cover this?

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"Not so much different than the assumption that the older residents in areas going through gentrification are also of a lower socio economic clas... the stats bear that out."

Where are the stats? Link? I'm not sure those data are out there.

"I know several developers in WB... the info comes from them."

I'll have to take you at your word on this, but it's not what I've seen. Which developers do you know?

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> You're grabbing at straws here - it is NOT an (incorrect) assumption to state that public housing
> project residents are in a lower socio-economic class.

Not so much different than the assumption that the older residents in areas going through gentrification are also of a lower socio economic clas... the stats bear that out.

> I'll ask you though - what have you "seen"

I have gone to open houses, yes, but thats not my data... I know several developers in WB... the info comes from them.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"Another assumption... projects actually have "market-rate" tenants mixed in. There are folks with highe incomes than what you are assuming."

You're grabbing at straws here - it is NOT an (incorrect) assumption to state that public housing project residents are in a lower socio-economic class. The market-rate tenants you cite are preciously few (I've only heard of this in the Harborview projects in the West 50s), whereas there are clearly defined income limits for applying to live in these complexes.

"In terms of WB, if you want to argue that the "local" residents are in the market for those condos... we'll never end this argument. But, I'm simply looking at the makeup of the buyers in the apartments. I'm not saying Latinos and old Polish folks can't... just noting that what I've see is... they just aren't."

Indeed, this is turning into another version of that old Carnegie Hill discussion. I'll ask you though - what have you "seen"? Are you really coming to open houses or going to closings for condos in Williamsburg? It just seems like you're going off a lot of easy (and inaccurate) assumptions.

"I believe technically the projects are in Ft. Greene, the larger mass of 'em is usually attributed there as far as I know. They just happen to cut right into the DUMBO area, not sure whose lines you want to go with (and I know vinegar hill is thrown in). I know that the defintion of WB has increased DRAMATICALLY since even 5-10 years ago."

Fair enough on the projects. I've been speaking about northside WB here. WB is obviously a huge area (even prior to the "expansion"), but I think most people are speaking about the northside on this board.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

"People living in the projects are a completely different situation because we're immediately identifying their socio-economic status."

Another assumption... projects actually have "market-rate" tenants mixed in. There are folks with highe incomes than what you are assuming.

In terms of WB, if you want to argue that the "local" residents are in the market for those condos... we'll never end this argument. But, I'm simply looking at the makeup of the buyers in the apartments. I'm not saying Latinos and old Polish folks can't... just noting that what I've see is... they just aren't.

I will also say that some of them (noted in your ethnic descriptions living in those neighborhoods) are related to me... and, no, they won't be buying new condos this decade either. ;-)

> True, but you brought up Fort Greene, which is why I was initially confused

I believe technically the projects are in Ft. Greene, the larger mass of 'em is usually attributed there as far as I know. They just happen to cut right into the DUMBO area, not sure whose lines you want to go with (and I know vinegar hill is thrown in). I know that the defintion of WB has increased DRAMATICALLY since even 5-10 years ago.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"You are sort of contradicting yourself here. If the people making it diverse are not IN the market... then they're not going to stop it from being a "niche market". People not in the market don't make it any more diverse a market (even if they make it more diverse a neighborhood), whether they are folks in the projects who you say can't afford, or the old polish folks who just happen to not be in the WB condo market either."

I just don't follow - you're making plenty of assumptions here. People aren't in the same markets because they're Polish? Why do you assume they're mostly old (they're not - plenty of families)? The whole argument falls flat because of these unfounded assumptions. People living in the projects are a completely different situation because we're immediately identifying their socio-economic status. Ethnicity does no such thing.

"The dumbo F stop is a couple hundred feet from the projects... I can't imagine how that isn't considered part of the "neighborhood"."

True, but you brought up Fort Greene, which is why I was initially confused!

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

If anything - if we're back on pricing here - I believe the existence of additional housing not in the market but that could become that - when the old polish guy dies - will actually mean even more price pressure.

For all the talk about the negatives of dumbo being land-locked, you have to figure that also means an inventory positive.... there isn't much more possibility for adding inventory in DUMBO, as there is in WB.

I can't imagine the projects getting gentrified.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> know that's meant as tongue-in-cheek, but again, you're equating people of certain ethnicities
> Poles, Italians, Latinos) to people living in the projects.

I'm not doing that... I'm just making the parallel of folks in neighborhood who are not in the same "market". Same if this were a suburb we were talking about, with houses having one demographic, and small apartments having another demographic. I picked projects specifically as an EXTREME demographic difference to call out the point, I'm not saying the Poles/Italians/Latinos are in that demographic at all. I just picked a more extreme example for the logic point.

> Yup - if the people living there fit a relatively smaller demographic, it should emphasize the niche
> market.

You are sort of contradicting yourself here. If the people making it diverse are not IN the market... then they're not going to stop it from being a "niche market". People not in the market don't make it any more diverse a market (even if they make it more diverse a neighborhood), whether they are folks in the projects who you say can't afford, or the old polish folks who just happen to not be in the WB condo market either.

Yes, the project dwellers or the old polish folks make the neighborhood more diverse... but we're talking economics here (see the thread) and the desirability of apartments in these neighborhoods. THe diversity itself can have an effect on the desirability of the neighborhood, but the presence of those folks in of itself doesn't add or subtract to the market itself. They're simply not in that market.

> I'm also not sure why you're calling folks from the projects (in downtown Brooklyn and Ft Greene)
> Dumbo residents

The dumbo F stop is a couple hundred feet from the projects... I can't imagine how that isn't considered part of the "neighborhood".

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"But could of course be a negative one.... it could restrict the pool of buyers to even smaller a niche."

Yup - if the people living there fit a relatively smaller demographic, it should emphasize the niche market. That's what I mean about Dumbo.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"OK, then dumbo is extremely diverse because you have folks from the projects shopping on the same block as the richies..."

I know that's meant as tongue-in-cheek, but again, you're equating people of certain ethnicities (Poles, Italians, Latinos) to people living in the projects. Those are unrelated, as far as I know. People living in public housing are almost by definition not able to buy. I'm also not sure why you're calling folks from the projects (in downtown Brooklyn and Ft Greene) Dumbo residents.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

OK, then dumbo is extremely diverse because you have folks from the projects shopping on the same block as the richies...

> They are not the only factor in buying, but they certainly are accounted for in the equation.

But could of course be a negative one.... it could restrict the pool of buyers to even smaller a niche.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"Sorry, I missed that. I'm just wondering if you had a vested interest here."

It depends on what you mean by "vested interest," but it certainly doesn't discredit what I've said here. As I've said before, I bought here because I saw those things, not the other way around. You may not believe that, but it's all relative to your degree of cynicism I think.

"You misunderstood my statement. I'm talking about the Ft. Green projects and their diversity relating to DUMBO. We're not talking about diversity of neighborhood, we're talking about diversity of buyers. The presence of others groups who won't be buyers of the housing stock in question won't affect the demand for that stock. To me, the niche or not has nothing to do with the neighbors..."

I don't get this - of course niche has to do with the neighbors. You're buying there and have to live with them! They are not the only factor in buying, but they certainly are accounted for in the equation. Furthermore, it's essentially impossible to know who's a potential buyer or not. The diversity of the neighborhood is certainly correlated to the diversity of buyers.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

Sorry, I missed that. I'm just wondering if you had a vested interest here.

> It's certainly not keeping buyers away - yes, volume has slowed, but, as you well know, that's due
> to other things, otherwise it would be a localized phenomenon

I guess we'll know for sure in a number of months.

"That is a fairly racist statement - these people do not live in projects (there aren't any here), and they certainly have been part of the buying crowd. Definitely relevant to the discussion. "

You misunderstood my statement. I'm talking about the Ft. Green projects and their diversity relating to DUMBO. We're not talking about diversity of neighborhood, we're talking about diversity of buyers. The presence of others groups who won't be buyers of the housing stock in question won't affect the demand for that stock. To me, the niche or not has nothing to do with the neighbors...

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"Do you live there?"

Yes, as stated above. These are things I'm seeing and experiencing on a daily basis. As for the reputation, that's my whole point - people are becoming aware of the reality and seeing past the old myths. It's certainly not keeping buyers away - yes, volume has slowed, but, as you well know, that's due to other things, otherwise it would be a localized phenomenon.

"Who I'm assuming are not likely buyers for the real estate in question, so not really relevant for the discussion, I'd think. Otherwise, I'd start noting the projects in Ft. Greene. ;-)"

That is a fairly racist statement - these people do not live in projects (there aren't any here), and they certainly have been part of the buying crowd. Definitely relevant to the discussion.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> not to mention established Polish, Italian, and Latino populations.

Who I'm assuming are not likely buyers for the real estate in question, so not really relevant for the discussion, I'd think. Otherwise, I'd start noting the projects in Ft. Greene. ;-)

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> With all due respect, it's pretty clear you have no idea here.

Do you live there?

And note I'm talking about the reputation, not the actual. If it keeps away buyers, it is real... and I'm seeing it as strong as ever amongst the manhattanites and even recent brooklynites I know..

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

Interestingly enough, stumbled across this after my last post:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/realestate/21livi.html

This is the other article I referred to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/nyregion/22williamsburg.html

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"I don't know what people you think are starting to see that the hipster myth is unfounded... that reputation is as strong as ever.... and I'm seeing more and more people shying away."

With all due respect, it's pretty clear you have no idea here. The variety of people in Williamsburg is pretty impressive actually. People are drawn by the music scene (certainly one of the best in the city, if not the country), art galleries, restaurants, shopping, nightlife, parks. It's probably the one Brooklyn neighborhood that draws a sizeable Manhattanite crowd on any given day/night. That makes for considerable variety in itself, but you have singles, families, a diverse set of foreigners (there was a NYT article about this quite recently actually), not to mention established Polish, Italian, and Latino populations. Living there, I can also tell you these people also work in a wide set of industries. Will you see the occasional hipster? Sure, but they no longer define the neighborhood. Sorry.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> I think Williamsburg is very close (people are starting to see that the
> hipster myth is a bit unfounded).

I think WB is as niche as it gets. I can't think of a place that automatically gets more people to disqualify themselves in conversation... and, as it has spread out, the relative transportation has gotten fairly poor. You can be fairly far from a subway, and a lousy set of choices at that.

I don't know what people you think are starting to see that the hipster myth is unfounded... that reputation is as strong as ever.... and I'm seeing more and more people shying away.

> But you're right, Brooklyn Heights is a niche as well, Red Hook, Prospect Heights to
> a certain extent.

Yes... but, outside of Red Hook, none anywhere near as much as Williamsburg.

I can't think of any neighborhood that has turned off more New Yorkers...

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

Even if we're the only two posting anymore :)

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

nyc10022, I don't know if they "suckered 'em too." It's hard to get data on this obviously, but most people I know like that a) haven't even heard of Dumbo, or b) have a pretty strong anti-outer borough bent. My impression is, you're going off impression as well (hence the "I think"), and though I'm sure there are several examples, this thread is really about what's going to happen from now on. I don't see the young and wealthy crowd attaching the same hipness cachet to Dumbo, which is why the niche (I think) will really be even stronger here.

I know there aren't many actual high-rise buildings, but there are LOTS of condos in them. In a tiny geographical area, that makes for a significant chunk of the homes there.

As for other Brooklyn neighborhoods, you can certainly go hood by hood and pick a favorite demographic. I think the simple fact that some are larger and more varied in terms of retail and amenities will open up the demo. Downtown and Fort Greene come to mind. I think Williamsburg is very close (people are starting to see that the hipster myth is a bit unfounded). But you're right, Brooklyn Heights is a niche as well, Red Hook, Prospect Heights to a certain extent.

This has been a really good discussion by the way!

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

here is the data...

http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/DUMBO_Designation_Report.pdf

historic district cuts out the 2 towers on the edge of the neighborhood, otherwise pretty much catches the majority of the neighborhood.

I went in 20 pages, and I found a 12/16 stories for 1 main in there... and thats it... the majority of stories were 7 or under...

I can't imagine how anyone could honestly call that "mostly high rises".

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> Most of the housing stock IS high-rise condos, sorry

You are sorry but not correct.

There are 2 high-rises, and thats it...

A few of the buildings are 3-5-7 stories...

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

btw, if you consider "niche", what in brooklyn do you think isn't niche?

pretty much every other area of "prime" is generally described as stroller-central, and not much else. I can't say my demographic anecdotes differ much from that...

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

btw, if you consider "niche", what in brooklyn do you think isn't niche?

pretty much every other area of "prime" is generally described as stroller-central, and not much else. I can't say my demographic anecdotes differ much from that...

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> not sure why you used the word "race" there, but ok),

joke...

> but rather that, unlike some Manhattanites (and many of the new yuppie crowd that gets stereotyped
> on other sites), they don't need every little need taken care of in their neighborhood

Thing is, I think they got them, too. Maybe they suckered 'em, maybe they said its coming, who knows.... but a friend who was one of the first legal residents in DUMBO made it clear to me that they got the stock manhattan yuppies in... (at least the brooklyn-accepting ones). His thought is that its gotten the range of pretty much everyone who hits the "prime" neighborhoods. I've seen DUMBO folks in as wide a range as folks I've seen move to CH and BH and BH and CG and even FG, once you subtract the income factor. And some folks who I've never seen similar in those places - the more manhattan-centric ones.

Maybe they sold 'em a bill of goods, who knows... but they managed to get 'em.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

Most of the housing stock IS high-rise condos, sorry. It's a small area with a high concentration of these, so for people who don't like towers in their neighborhood, it won't be particularly appealing. With all this defense of Dumbo (and I'm not even really criticizing it here), it's just amazing you're still denying you're just EddieWilson using another screenname!

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

nyc10022, I'm not saying they don't like amenities (not sure why you used the word "race" there, but ok), but rather that, unlike some Manhattanites (and many of the new yuppie crowd that gets stereotyped on other sites), they don't need every little need taken care of in their neighborhood. Sure there are families and single people there, but I think it's clear why this neighborhood would appeal to people with a different set of tastes and mentality. I think they did their homework and knew this set also tends to be fairly well off.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

:-)

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

btw, people who "like high-rise condos" is also wrong.... you have some towers, but then you also have low-rise blocks as well. Its a historic district now. Plus some 3 story stuff as well.

I think its a little wacky to note the size of building as part of "niche" when its got one of the widest ranges of anywhere.

Unless there is the niche of people who like small, big, and medium buildings and are male or female and have or don't have kids.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

BJW, are you actually defending your description of a race of folks who don't like amenities?

Sorry, I just think you are making a huge stretch here. I don't agree with the assessment at all... they went VERY wide in their marketing, and seem to be one of the few neighborhoods successful in doing so. They've got familes, singles, a little of everything... and a high demand as shown by prices and sales. I've never heard anyone mistake that for "niche" before...

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

"Completely fabricated"? Are you telling me Dumbo is loud and bustling? It doesn't have a lot of high-rise condos? There's a lot of big-chain retail? Lots of subway options? Come on.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

Yeah, sorry... that just sounds completely fabricated to me. We'll have to agree to disagree.

They're had a lot of success of getting yuppies of all types in there, and kept prices by far the highest in the borough... I think its the only area that sold all its apartments.

bjw2103: about 10 months ago

colosir, that has a lot to do with the mix here - it's overwhelmingly condos.

"Exactly what niche do you think DUMBO is focused on?"

I think it's for people who don't need every amenity within walking distance, like quiet, sometimes deserted-feeling streets, like high-rise condos, and who have a strong dislike for big chain retail. I would also say you'd find people here who aren't overly dependent on the subway - there's only one stop for one line (the F) in the entire neighborhood, and it's a bit of an unpleasant walk to the A/C on High St. That "nichey" enough for you? Again, not knocking it, but it's important to see the neighborhood as it is. Those who love the things I described will truly love it, and I think that's great.

nyc10022: about 10 months ago

> And having people of both sexes and different household sizes does NOT mean it's not a niche.

We're running out of niches then. ;-)

Exactly what niche do you think DUMBO is focused on?